Alright guys, I hope y'all aren't too hard on me for this, but I need some help.

I have never owned an airplane but I have been around them my whole life. I grew up on a grass strip and my dad owned 15+ planes over the years. It was ultimately what came to his financial demise. He bought more plane than he could handle (Twin Otter) and it sunk him after an A&P pencil whipped a plane with rust damage. He's admitted that he should of done a better job with the pre-purchase inspection. That mid 6 figure repair bill and a pain killer addiction took him to a dark place.

So, I have some hesitation when it comes to buying a plane. First of all, I know its a reach. Here is a break down of what my financial picture looks like:

- Airplane is $80k
- I put down 15% of that ($12k)
- I have $23k in my bank account right now
- My wife and I make a combined $150k per year
- We are debt free besides our home
- I didn't factor in that I would have to pay insurance annually in one lump sum. That is an additional $3k (yeah, it hurts).
- So that puts me at $7k liquid funds (before any pre-purchase inspection fees or other general purchase costs).
- Seller has agreed to do a fresh annual before purchased and pay for anything it needs, except the Rotax Circlip service bulletin which he has a 'credit' for.
- Lastly, this plane retails new at $97k. It is a 2017 model with 35 hours on the Rotax 912ULS 100hp. It really is in perfect condition and he just says he wants it to go to a good home. Which I genuinely believe.

With watching the market for this plane, they are selling for $82k with 250 hours on them. Worst case scenario, I can sell it and likely make some money or break even if I need to.

Obviously I'm scared about buying it. It's my second biggest purchase next to my home. But it's my dream. My dad is the one person I have to talk to about it and he says "just buy it". He also makes terrible financial decisions.

Just need some help here guys. Low time pilot just trying to chase a dream. Let me know if I'm making a bad decision. Airplane: AeroTrek A240

Well, it's closer than I'd be willing to cut it financially, but I'm conservative when it comes to buying play toys. I simply refuse to borrow money to pay for anything that I don't absolutely need. Aside from a mortgage or zero-interest car loan, I've never borrowed a dime in my life. It's been a very good financial strategy.

My take on it: Airplanes ALWAYS cost more to own and operate than you think they will.

A airplane that you get to fly a couple hours a week is no compensation for your wife commuting on bad tires, or having to use the laundromat because you can't afford to fix the washing machine, or having to pay for a new roof with a credit card and then end up paying four-times what it should have cost.

A year from now you could very well hate the ownership of that airplane even more than you currently love the idea of owning it. You might not...you might feel very good about it, but it's a lot of financial exposure IMO.

Turn around and sell it for a profit? Maybe, but probably not if the reason you're selling it is because something came up you can't afford to address. Plus, you're paying interest on it, so a couple grand over what you bought it for isn't going to help much.

There are a lot of good $30k airplanes out there...

good luck!

That was a great reply, Hammer.

Thank you. I agree with you that it's likely too close to cut it financially.

I have definitely let my emotions get into this potential purchase. And my wife is supportive but worried about it.

I feel bad going back to the guy and telling him I can't afford it now (if that's the choice I do make) but it's better than regretting a loan of $68k.

Once this aviation bug gets you, it's hard to shake, haha.

And you're right. There are a lot of great $30k planes out there. For me, they have to be light sport.

I have always been a 'buy it' kind of guy and that has worked out pretty well for me, albeit not without struggles. I'm becoming more cautious in my 50s and I'm less willing to struggle.

I think you have to ask yourself what a $80,000 airplane will do for you that a $30,000 plane won't.

I heard a great line the other day regarding a toy purchase: "I wouldn't waste the money unless I had the money to waste.".

Good luck. I don't think it is a black or white decision but plenty of thought beforehand will help you avoid post-purchase regret.

I agree that a 30-40k plane might be a wiser choice in your situation.

You can do all sorts of flying and learning in a Pacer, Stinson, Sedan, C140 or C170, etc... Most of them burn more fuel than a rotax powered ship, but 40-50k and the interest thereupon buys a lot of avgas and insurance over time. $30000.00 airplanes really tend to hold their value, though can get tough to unload during down economic times.

I wouldn't worry about letting the seller of the AeroTrek down. That's not an important factor in YOUR decision.

Your numbers sound familiar. But instead of an 80K plane I got a Tripacer for 15K. Better deal is the more expensive end of the line, so a 30K Tripacer would have saved me money in the long run.

Anyway, if you want light sport the Tripacer won't work for you, but as for the economics of it, I can afford to maintain it at a very high level, planning proactively for the larger expenditures, and I put 100 to 200 hours a year on it. If I had the 80K airplane, I would spend less time flying. I like flying.

I think you're already winning this battle by demonstrating awareness of the problem.

Airplane financing though is not impressive. I financed my first aircraft and on my income and credit at the time, it was borderline predatory. 5 years at some moderate interest rate, then a balloon payment at the end...but I was desperate to own my own airplane. Their objective is to string you along forever making the interest payments. The memories I made in that airplane are priceless, but I did sell it and try to reset by buying my home and vowing never to borrow money to buy an airplane ever again. Now I own $80k worth of Bearhawk kit and associated accessories which are useful for stimulating my imagination and little else at this point.

Others have used other means of more sensible financing, like borrowing from a 401k or a home equity loan, but it's a dangerous realm to tie toys into secured debt like your home.

Airplane valuation is weird. It used to be that airplanes with fixed and waning inventory like Skywagons and 170s and Super Cubs, they would appreciate. A newly manufactured SLSA though is more like a new car as it starts losing value immediately. Your Aerotrek find might be like a good newer used car purchase since it's already taken a hit but is in good condition.

I will say that you can probably expect fewer maintenance issues with such a new factory built LSA vs buying a $30k old airplane and constantly turd polishing on it and stopping the holes in the dam with your fingers. There is some value to the time saved, to the tune of $50,000. Then again with a high-scrutiny inspection you can achieve the same with some old airplanes.

I fear you will find LSA limiting with a wife passenger if you want to travel and camp.

Why does it have to be light sport??
DENNY

gtylerdowdy wrote:I feel bad going back to the guy and telling him I can't afford it now (if that's the choice I do make) but it's better than regretting a loan of $68k.

Don't worry a bit about this. I just sold a plane and had multiple people tell me they "definitely" wanted it and then backed out. It's part of the deal of selling anything. If it's a good solid airplane at a fair price it will move.

gtylerdowdy wrote:And you're right. There are a lot of great $30k planes out there. For me, they have to be light sport.

Just bought one (Champ7AC) and I love it. With that said if you do buy a 30K light sport it will most likely be a pretty old plane. Nothing wrong with a old plane, but a 60 - 70+ year old plane needs different care than something pretty new. Sounds like you know planes pretty well though.

gtylerdowdy wrote: Lastly, this plane retails new at $97k. It is a 2017 model with 35 hours on the Rotax 912ULS 100hp. It really is in perfect condition and he just says he wants it to go to a good home. Which I genuinely believe.

No matter what you buy or from who (I don't care if it's the Dalai Lama) when you find a plane that you are serious about get a through pre-buy done. Even if the guy is honest as the day is long there may be something he doesn't know about. Been there...

gtylerdowdy wrote:And my wife is supportive but worried about it.

Some may argue with me, but I think it's much easier to find a good airplane than a good wife. I would try to keep the purchase price in her comfort zone.

Good luck,

Pete

That. I kept my wife comfortable with the cost and I have had this plane about 18 years.

She is still comfortable as I upgrade the motor and prop.

It works.

My policy has always been NO loans to buy or support airplanes. Period. I’ve owned several planes and I’m not wealthy.

Your mileage may vary, but I’d look at less expensive planes.

MTV

As several others have mentioned, I have never borrowed money to be a plane. Always paid in cash/check. I have sacrificed a lot in other parts of my life to enable me to do that. Until my recent truck purchase, I hadn't purchased a new truck since 1991! Drove beaters, rarely drink, don't smoke or gamble. Fix everything that I can by myself etc. etc.

The thought of owning something newer is great if you can swing it. Generally much less spent on repairs and maintaince needed than on an older plane. The fuel savings of running auto gas in the Rotax is something else that counts up in the savings.

Again, already mentioned but lots of old Champs, Cubs, Taylorcrafts, etc can be had for 1/4-1/3 of your proposed budget. I owned a nice Champ on floats and had a blast with it. Flew it all over my area. Great plane and yes, it was old and seemed like there was always something needing attention. Most of these old planes aren't that expensive to get replacement parts for though. No more expensive than parts will be for the Rotax.

The Light Sport market seems to be fairly stable, but I wonder if the proposed weight increase will cause some of these LS aircraft to decline in value. If I remember correctly, the Aero trek A240 has a 12xx GW. Isn't the 240 a trike (nosewheel)? I looked at them a couple of years ago at Oshkosh. Very nice little plane.

Not exactly sure the long detailed background info on your dad's poor decisions and history of aircraft ownership has squat to do with YOU. This whole post stinks of sympathetic craving, DRAMA, such as you would find on a DR. PHIL Meets Suze Orman show. What typically plays out is a poster will set out the supposed FACTS and then pick apart everyone's advice, by replying with MORE details left out by the original poster and more REASON WHY the advice does not apply to them. Typically a person already has their mind made up.

150K in combined income and debt free, should be massively saving each month, unless the house is a Mansion taking up all of your disposable income. So giving a Static savings of 23K only is leaving out the fact that every month your savings pool should be growing at least a few thousand each month. I know this, because I am in this earnings tax Bracket and debt free.

Picking an airplane to buy is not like buying a car. Much thought has to be given to the massive LIABILITY you have of a depreciating, financed asset. Light-Sport aircraft are niche of niche. Except for a Carbon Cub or a few others in the top, you can expect massive depreciation. over the last 10 years the A240 has only sold 45 total aircraft that have been registered in the United States. Ask yourself, do you want to finance a depreciating, niche, piece of property that will likely be worth half of the financed value in a 4-5 years from now and hard to sell if ever needed?

look at the Evektor 2005-2007 models sell for 55K roughly. Half of their retail value gone and at one time they were the top seller of S-LSA aircraft.

To be shelling out 3K per year for insurance is ludicrous to say the least. A comparable Cessna 150 would cost you maybe $500 per year for hull and liability. NOW, what you probably have never thought about is what happens to your plane, after it swallows a valve and ruins the entire engine? I know a handful of pilot/owners who have financed aircraft and had an engine go south, requiring 20-30K just to replace the junk engine. It happens quite a bit. So then you are severely underwater in a scenario like that and you are left with a monthly bill for an airplane that is now a project plane.

The only plane I would recommend financing is a plane that has already depreciated and is able to be sold off quite quickly, without much loss, if needed. This would be for example, a Cessna 150/152/172 or similar. Light sport could be a 2009/2010 - 55K Evecktor or CTSW by Flight Design.

My advice is to take a deep breath and PASS. Your looking at a scenario with Massive Risk and liability, that you are carrying.


A240 AIRCRAFT REGISTRATIONS 2009 - 2019:

https://public.tableau.com/views/U_S_LightSportAircraftRegistrations/GrowthbyMakeModel?&%3Adisplay_count=yes&%3AshowVizHome=no

It seems like there's a bit of a "jump on a good deal" motivation here, and I totally understand that. But a good deal on something that's out of your budget is not a good deal...it's a trap.

Also, as others have pointed out, this airplane likely will not hold value, much less appreciate, even in a good economy. Since it has no value as a commercial vehicle and is essentially a jet-ski in the sky, any hit to the economy is going to directly effect what you could sell it for.

And (as other others have already said), don't worry about the seller. If he's selling a solid plane at a fair price, he will have no trouble finding a good home for it. And if it's a bad home...who cares? It's a machine, not a sentient being. Better it be ground up for scrap than for you to over-extend to own it and regret it later.

Edit...so folks have mentioned that the newer Rotax powered airplane could be less expensive to operate than a vintage airplane, and that's valid, but only for the hours you fly. A airplane you paid cash for but costs twice as much to fly can be flown less during lean times and you actually realize a savings. On the other hand, a financed airplane costs a lot whether you fly it or not, and the less expensive operating costs are of no value if they're still above your budget that particular month.

Regardless, given the numbers you've provided, I think this is a ridiculous percentage of your overall finances for something you don't need in any rational sense of the word.

Hey 'lownslow79', while I don't think your whole post was irrelevant, your first paragraph sure was.

Not exactly sure the long detailed background info on your dad's poor decisions and history of aircraft ownership has squat to do with YOU. This whole post stinks of sympathetic craving, DRAMA, such as you would find on a DR. PHIL Meets Suze Orman show. What typically plays out is a poster will set out the supposed FACTS and then pick apart everyone's advice, by replying with MORE details left out by the original poster and more REASON WHY the advice does not apply to them. Typically a person already has their mind made up.

There's no need to be an d*ck. The information about my dad wasn't "long and detailed". It was brief, concise, and affected me a good bit. I was painting a picture of my position to give an accurate representation of where my head is at. And building a relationship with the users on here.

Also, if you've read this post and its replies, I have actually agreed with the conservative advice given. And after thinking it through, I plan on telling the seller tomorrow that I am not financially ready for this purchase.

I don't want to stoop to your level and insult you. I hope you find a more positive outlook on life and become friendlier. It would serve you well.

Sincerely,

- A 31 year old (new) pilot just trying to get advice.

As for everyone else's great replies, thank you so much!! It has made me rethink some of these things and either a) rent for now and continue saving or b) find a cheaper airplane.

Thanks again!

Airplane markets change and right now it is about as inflated as I have ever seen it. So a good deal now is not the same as a great deal in a down market. When will that happen again? Who knows ? but something to consider. I assume you have the means to rent and just enjoy flying and gain experience. Owning is always more expensive than renting unless you fly a ton of hours per year. A partnership can be a great way to get into a nice plane with 12K and no debt as well. Your father sounds like he made some poor decisions - of which the opiate pain killers likely a worse financial decision than the airplane - not to mention for his health, mind and spirit. Seems to me you are doing well for yourself and family at 31 and will likely make more money in the future. I would just enjoy flying right now and keep your eye on the market.

I have the same combined annual income as you.

I made a bunch of cash on real estate and I bought two light sport airplanes outright.

2017 Bushcat SLSA with 30 hours. 73k

2013 RV12 ELSA with 76 hours 56k

My first was a PA22/20 that I leased to a CFI student totalled it in a groundloop incident (6 hours after I had just redone the exhaust system and every single squawk on the airplane) lost money but at least it was a write-off because of the leaseback situation.

I've had the RV12 for 6 months I've had the bush cat for 18.

The Bush cat has essentially had no expenses other than fuel (you could add in the $4,000 or whatever it cost to get my light sport repairmans certificate. I flew it almost 200 hours last year. 4 gallons an hour. Spark plugs once and oil changes.

I just actually dropped hull coverage due to the cost. $500 a year vs 2000.

Owning an airplane is a financial drain even if you buy the airplane outright and own and almost new airplane. Hangar insurance etc.

There have been a lot of good posts in this thread. To me, if you can get by with one person and fly the shit out of the airplane it's worth it. However I can't take Zzz and all of our fishing stuff to go catch some steelhead beside the river we need two airplanes. My wife said she wanted to fly last week but we can't do it without a babysitter. Trying to combine babysitters and schedules with the weather in the Pacific Northwest in December is pretty futile.

The Pacer killed me with maintenance costs. I'm willing to accept the lower payload because fuel and maintenance are basically nothing. Almost new rotax powered light sport has a lot going for it as far as hidden problems and maintenance costs, and enables me to fly lots.

I would never conceive of getting a loan to buy an airplane. If you can't afford to buy it outright you just shouldn't do it. You should be putting at least 10% of your annual income towards retirement or investments not a skywagon or a pacer.

I am a huge proponent of light sport airplanes for daytime VFR fun. They have a lot of limitations but if you want to fly It gets the job done and it's affordable. By mid next year I hope to have my CFI-S and be doing some flight training so that the tax advantages come into play. I just want my airplane habit to not wreck my family's financial future.

The RV 12 is an experiment in club ownership for me. I'm looking to get a couple of the right people and a couple CFIs on board and if it can't at least break even in 12 months I'll sell it. My cocktail napkin math is $50 an hour to operate that airplane not including the purchase price.

I could afford to buy a skywagon if I sold the airplanes I have and threw in a little bit. But I couldn't afford to fly it 300 hours a year. And 90% of the time I think other people want to fly yet somehow I end up in the airplane by myself grateful for the fuel burn of the rotax. However if I had a sky wagon I would be camping on the river right now with a buddy instead of putting a post on backcountrypilot. It's all about tradeoffs and in airplanes you PAY.

I would drop the budget and look at a 200 hour LSA. Save money buy one with cash. Evektor is a really good option. RV 12 is an option.

I'm working right now with a Boeing engineer who bought a Bushcat kit. 300 hour build time he will be in it 50 grand brand new. Brand new. You could build an RV 12 in a lot more time and have a nice airplane for a reasonable price (to the best of my knowledge a current kit with an engine is going to cost you about $70,000) plus YEARS of your time.

Save money. Stash as much money as you can for retirement and investing for the future. Don't finance an airplane. Save for one and when you can afford it (Budget twice as much as you think) then do it but pay for it in cash.

Just my late night ramblings for what they are worth. I flew 3 hours today for 50 bucks. But it didn't really cost $50 I just think about it that way and the rest of the money isn't sinking me! If I was making $1,000 a month airplane payment most of which was going to interest the math just doesn't pencil out for me!




.

And btw. If you think you are going to buy that airplane and sell it for more money than you paid for you should come over to my house and give me some of what you are smoking [emoji6]

I've always said "justify" and"aviation" don't belong in the same sentence.

I have a spreadsheet that was developed by someone else which let's you plug in all the details and try different "what if" scenarios to determine the true and complete costs. Just changing the number of hours flown jumps off the screen with some reality.

Debt service, partners, hangar/tie down, right down to the cost if a quart of oil. The guy who made it ran a few successful partnerships, and I would have to say they were successful because his math was sound.

For partnerships it even lets you play with varying hourly rate vs monthly dues (something most clubs guess at).

PM me an email address and I'll forward it to you.

Using it, my paid for (hangared) Citabria calculates to about $124/hr wet. I can almost rent a C172 for that. The financial conservatives would posit that I'm a fool to own just based on that

However:
A C172 is a very dull aircraft
I can't rent a tail dragger anywhere, let alone operate it from dirt
I have no scheduling difficulties EVER
I can take my plane on trips for any length of time
No restrictions on where I land
The condition of the plane is never in question

What it feels like, is that I can go flying in a fun airplane when ever I want and just pay for gas.

I've known too many people who worked hard, head down for "someday" and never made it.

mtv wrote:My policy has always been NO loans to buy or support airplanes. Period. I’ve owned several planes and I’m not wealthy.

Your mileage may vary, but I’d look at less expensive planes.

MTV

My dad taught me that you never buy toys on time. I bought my plane after the ranch was paid off. Never regretted it. I would sure hate to be making payments on a plane then try to finance a 30K overhaul. Can you get an O470 done that cheap now,