At risk of stating the obvious:

It's hard to impossible to do much of this fancy footwork on the brakes and rudder if you don't have good feeling and agility through your shoes.

I started in a '41 T-Craft with worn-out heel brakes. Then I transitioned to a 170B with well-adjusted, responsive hydraulic toe-brakes. Problem was, I had come from Alaska to Maine to ferry this airplane home, and I had brought some stiff, heavy leather boots as my camping out, survive-in-the-wilds of Canada, all-in-one footwear. The first evening of T&G practice ended with us hitching the tail spring to my friend's pickup truck, pulling it back onto the runway. (fortunately, only got off into grass and mud, and no harm done,)

Next day, a trip to the shoe store for some light running shoes with total ankle mobility, and I was back in the saddle without further problems.

Now that I have more time in the 170, I don't sweat it nearly as much, but for learning it was huge.

I also would like to make a plug for Steeger Mukluks in winter: http://www.mukluks.com/ Most winter footwear is extremely rigid, clunky, and not always easy to wriggle your toes to warm them up. I have a couple ski flying seasons now in Steegers, and I'm completely sold. Also, they don't have any eyelets to scratch up the cowling when you're climbing up to fuel a high-wing.

Happy landings,

-DP

If any of you end up in Arizona (which most of the time I would not recommend) there is a school here Arizona Aviation, that has a Champ and two great instructors. Both have been flying it for many years and together have built a syllabus that is pretty unique. Before they will sign you off you have to be proficient in wheel, 3 points and bounce recovery, something not often taught but very valuable.

Thousands of hours in tailwheel airplanes...

...never once used differential braking during wheel landings, until the tail was down. Did my initial tailwheel flying in a Twin Beech. Was scared of 3 point landings for years.....too slow I thought. Finally learned to do them in a Citabria. Later in C-140s, c-170s, c-180s my Pitts, my Skybolt and finally my Maule M-5.

Ray Maule says "There is never a reason to make a wheel landing in a Maule."

Well I am out one day in a max crosswind practicing landings. Alll of them were wheel landings. My buddy got on the unicom and challenged me saying...."never a reason to make a wheel landing in a Maule."

O.K. I am up to the challenge. The next landing was a 3 point with max(maybe a bit over) crosswind. I darned near went for the toolies. Used max differential braking to stay on the runway.

Went back to the wheel landings....no problem.

Bottom line. Don't use differential braking when wheel landing and the tail is still in the air....any airplane. Three pointers in a Maule with heavy crosswind.....better be on top of things...... with differential braking as the rudder is not very effective, at that point.

Oh yeah.....if you don't know how to both wheel land and 3 point tailwheel airplanes.....you ain't fully checked out!

Happy flying,

Bob

p.s. Now I'll be the next guy headed into the weeds!!

denalipilot wrote:At risk of stating the obvious:

It's hard to impossible to do much of this fancy footwork on the brakes and rudder if you don't have good feeling and agility through your shoes.

I started in a '41 T-Craft with worn-out heel brakes. Then I transitioned to a 170B with well-adjusted, responsive hydraulic toe-brakes. Problem was, I had come from Alaska to Maine to ferry this airplane home, and I had brought some stiff, heavy leather boots as my camping out, survive-in-the-wilds of Canada, all-in-one footwear. The first evening of T&G practice ended with us hitching the tail spring to my friend's pickup truck, pulling it back onto the runway. (fortunately, only got off into grass and mud, and no harm done,)

Next day, a trip to the shoe store for some light running shoes with total ankle mobility, and I was back in the saddle without further problems.

Now that I have more time in the 170, I don't sweat it nearly as much, but for learning it was huge.

I also would like to make a plug for Steeger Mukluks in winter: http://www.mukluks.com/ Most winter footwear is extremely rigid, clunky, and not always easy to wriggle your toes to warm them up. I have a couple ski flying seasons now in Steegers, and I'm completely sold. Also, they don't have any eyelets to scratch up the cowling when you're climbing up to fuel a high-wing.

Happy landings,

-DP

Sorry to overstay my welcome,

Deneli Pilot is right on. Back in 1984 I bought a Pitts biplane. My copilot at the airline told me to fly it barefooted or with tennis shoes.

I took him at his word; as he had soloed a Pitts on his 16th birthday: His father was a founder of the IAC, his brother an airshow pilot and former national aerobatic pilot while flying Pitts aircraft.

I never did the barefoot thing....but always wore tennis shoes in my Pitts and later in my 260 H.P. Skybolt. One worked the Pitts rudder like crazy on take off and landing. The Skybolt was far more docile. I routinely wear hiking boots in the Maule. But I have 600 hours in it and am very comfortable.

Tennies.....are a good idea!

Bob

z3skybolt wrote:Ray Maule says "There is never a reason to make a wheel landing in a Maule."

FYI -- When BD was still around "Ray" was not allowed in the Factory so that should tell ya what Ray's thoughts are worth....

Two simple aids have enabled me to break through the supposed mystery of transition to Maule tailwheel landings when teaching.
(1) The transitioning pilot fly barefoot, socks ok or very thin soled shoes until the many methods of landing are mastered.
(2) If transitioning from a tandem taildragger to a side by side Maule, set the planes main gear dead centre on the straight white line and the tailwheel on it. Place a rear 'sight' on the top of the panel in line with the nose of the pilot, and place a piece of electric tape out on the forward portion of the top cowl (approx 8 or 9 inch left of centre) for a front site at a lateral position that aligns with the white centre line about halfway down the runway.
There is a tendency for the subconcious of the pilot who has been flying directly behind the prop in a tandem to note the windshield braces or side posts and try to see them in the same position in the Maule. It is important to note that in the Maule, the straight ahead viewpoint is Under the left brace NOT between them otherwise the plane will be angled to the left at touchdown. Bad thing.
Jeremy

Durango Rebel wrote:$10,000 later got back into it and got signed off w/out a wheel landing. He says it doesn't do 'em well ('ala maule). Few months later flew with a very experienced pilot who did some beautifull wheel landings from the right seat, he says it does great.

Just goes to show you, if this intire thread wasn't enough proof, that there are a whole bunch of instructors out there that have no business teaching in a TW airplane.

FWIW, I never saw any mystery in a Maule. It's a good honest flying airplane. To me it flies like a PA-20 Pacer but with easier ground handling, more power and a better wing. Anytime I hear people say that a maule is "tricky" or "a handful," It just confirms that they don't posses the required training and or experience.

Bill

Highlift wrote:

z3skybolt wrote:Ray Maule says "There is never a reason to make a wheel landing in a Maule."

FYI -- When BD was still around "Ray" was not allowed in the Factory so that should tell ya what Ray's thoughts are worth....

No matter how hard you try eventually the truth comes out. BTW. He's not the President or Vice President either. Mom's President of course and the Vice is his brother. Of course you won't know he is the Vice because he wears a workers shirt with his name on it like everybody else and you won't find him in his office, he is out on the floor in the 100 deg. heat like his Father used to be.

N4653B wrote: Anytime I hear people say that a maule is "tricky" or "a handful," It just confirms that they don't posses the required training and or experience.

Bill

Well said!

maules.com wrote:Two simple aids have enabled me to break through the supposed mystery of transition to Maule tailwheel landings when teaching.
(1) The transitioning pilot fly barefoot, socks ok or very thin soled shoes until the many methods of landing are mastered.
(2) If transitioning from a tandem taildragger to a side by side Maule, set the planes main gear dead centre on the straight white line and the tailwheel on it. Place a rear 'sight' on the top of the panel in line with the nose of the pilot, and place a piece of electric tape out on the forward portion of the top cowl (approx 8 or 9 inch left of centre) for a front site at a lateral position that aligns with the white centre line about halfway down the runway.
There is a tendency for the subconscious of the pilot who has been flying directly behind the prop in a tandem to note the windshield braces or side posts and try to see them in the same position in the Maule. It is important to note that in the Maule, the straight ahead viewpoint is Under the left brace NOT between them otherwise the plane will be angled to the left at touchdown. Bad thing.
Jeremy

Jeremy- I placed a piece of tape on the windscreen but your approach is much more logical. Because my subconscious has been my problem from the get go! I also did the sock thing but I am sure I still have an occasion to not be straight. Thanks for the input because I am running out the door to put tape in the correct spots

It seems to me that to hold off for a three pointer in anything but the calmest air in my 170B (Sportsman STOL) will result in ballooning and the need to apply a little power to settle smoothly. The only exception is when it is dragged across the landing threshold with lot's of power just above the stall, which works only in calm or steady wind, but is the shortest possible method. I can place the mains on the landing surface firmly indicating under 50 mph, regardless of the wind conditions, dump the flaps once down and be stopped much shorter than if I'm burning useful ground waiting around for the stall to occur. I am definitely a fan of wheel landings in the 170, and I use the brakes to steer with the tail up or the tail down.

MHO is that full stall landings are better suited for airplanes with: short-coupling, higher stall speeds, very positive stall characteristics, higher wing loadings, aft loading, or fantastic roll response. This seems to exclude most back-country airplanes, but I probably haven't flown yours...

scolopax,

I do both three point and wheel landings regularly and alternately in my 170.

Pulling off a three point to a specific touchdown point is entirely possible, and is simply a matter of planning and airspeed control. There is no need to use power, though it can help.

You should be able to fail the engine (close the throttle) abeam the touchdown point on downwind, and touch down right where you want it, both three point and wheel landing.

MTV

It excludes Maules too, But I can tell you that to get a stock Maule in short, your almost certainly going to touch down tail wheel first, then the mains. Floating is not a problem with the Maule unless you are way too fast, usually it's just the opposite of balooning that is the problem with a Maule.
Now if your 170 is like my 140, then I agree, much happier in a wheel landing.

for what it's worth, I use the three point method 90% of the time in my taylorcraft. I have done so in all types of windy conditions, and personally just feel more comfortable three pointing one of my main instructors, who was 80 at the time said if you are in a three-point configuration on the ground, you know that your airplane is done flying, always worked for me. Also the best tail control you have is the throttle.

This is one of those subjects that just doesn't have a absolute correct answer but it sure makes for some interesting reading
shawn

I started thinking about this thread the other day...

I got a little out of sorts on a landing and had my first save-it-with-brake experience. I have taken to positioning the balls of my feet on the bottom of the rudder pedal, heels just barely off the floor, definitely not in a braking position. I find that lets me control rudder a little more precisely and aggressively. I only slide them up into the braking position once I'm slowed enough to need or want some braking. I used to keep my whole foot on the pedal when I flew 152's and 172's, but I can't imagine using that now, seems weird.

I found out the other day how quickly i can reposition for some needed braking... I also got to practice getting on the brakes hard (not differentially) in a wheel landing to get slowed quickly. I'd always been afraid to get on my new Clevelands very hard for fear of the infamous endo, but I was trying to make the first taxiway and subconsciously got on them hard with some strong aft elevator. Not as scary as I thought. Those Clevelands modulate really well.

Going around is fine IF you are somewhere it is safe to do that. You need to decide before landing if it is a safe place to do a go around.
I have done a lot of motorcycle racing and the front brake is something that has to be understood and used to it's full potential. For me my toe brakes are a lot that same way on my Highlander. When landing in very short, narrow weird places I have to use my brakes to get stopped quickly and at the same time am using them for directional control.

A sure fire solution. Move the main gear back about two feet, then remove the tail wheel and attach it to the nose. Works wonders! Oh, I just couldnt resist. This thread actually has some great information that I'll ponder if I ever need it.

Whynot,

It's a truism that virtually all the skills that we MUST learn in a tailwheel airplane to operate successfully in a variety of conditions will also serve quite well in tricycle gear airplanes.

Just because a particular type of aircraft (trigear) WILL tolerate poor pilot technique does not suggest that the pilot should not or cannot use good technique to advantage in that machine as well.

I have seen trigear airplanes lose control in a wind as well. In fact, one in a wind I'd just landed in in a tailwheel airplane....and I am NOT the Ace of the Base.

Tricycle gear airplanes are great machines, and, properly flown will go places many tailwheel pilots would balk at. But, ANY airplane deserves to be flown as well as the pilot possibly can.

MTV

I've been operating equipment that uses differential braking since I was about 6 years old. Speed and differential braking is a phenomina one must aquire through some training and a lot of practical experience. If you are landing a tandem or side-by-side airplane, wheel or 3 point, if you don't understand what differetial braking is, you will be taught. Hopefully you are a fast learner and you and the machine will servive. When landing I use very little brake unless absolutely necessary, and then very careful about how to apply it. Taxiing can also take some doing in heavy crosswinds with braking.
Ever ground loop a John Deere?...came pretty close a couple of times
HC

mtv wrote:Whynot,

It's a truism that virtually all the skills that we MUST learn in a tailwheel airplane to operate successfully in a variety of conditions will also serve quite well in tricycle gear airplanes.

Just because a particular type of aircraft (trigear) WILL tolerate poor pilot technique does not suggest that the pilot should not or cannot use good technique to advantage in that machine as well.

I have seen trigear airplanes lose control in a wind as well. In fact, one in a wind I'd just landed in in a tailwheel airplane....and I am NOT the Ace of the Base.

Tricycle gear airplanes are great machines, and, properly flown will go places many tailwheel pilots would balk at. But, ANY airplane deserves to be flown as well as the pilot possibly can.

MTV

Agreed, and I was just poking fun. It woudn't bother me if all seeking their private were required to get some tailwheel time. Not necessarily checked out in T-draggers, but at least some time. It would demonstrate the use of skills that would serve them well in any plane, (as you stated).