I can't find any pricing online - does anyone know what they run?

What's the install on them? I assume it must be done by A&P?

I guess what I am getting at is what is the total investment? There is a nice straight tail 182 here in town if I can talk my ego out of the TW.

Last year my friend bought a Sposrtsman STOL kit from Stene avaition for $1,995.
There is not comparisson between the Horton and the Sportsman.

I removed the Horton to install a Sportsman, and there is a big difference, Sportsman much much better.

Thanks for the info - what about install?

Here in Costa Rica they charged me $1,000 .
Labor costs more in the USA though.

If you choose the Sportsman I would highly recommend finding a mechanic who's done several instillations. For one thing that's the only way you'll get an accurate bid on what it's going to cost. For another, a friend of mine just had the Sportsman kit put on his plane, and he had a lot of trouble with the kit. Missing parts and worse yet, incorrect parts mixed throughout the kit...more than just a few minor errors. That caused several weeks of delay, but if the mechanic hadn't recognized the discrepancies before attempting to install the kit, it would have been a HUGE Charlie Foxtrot.

They took care of it, but the overall experience was disappointing. It would have been sooo much worse if the mechanic hadn't had prior experience installing the kit and couldn't see the problems ahead of time.

He might have just been unlucky with his kit, or Sportsman might be at the aft limit of their quality control vs order fulfillment matrix.

Regarding the Horton: I've got that on my 170 (came that way), and while I'd rather put the Sportsman on if I was starting from scratch, the Horton is a gigantic improvement over the stock wing. My airspeed indicator goes to dead zero long before the wing stalls, and it's nice and predictable. If the Horton is significantly less expensive to install (thats where the real money will be spent), I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Sportsman might be the best but a budget is a budget.

As stated, the Sportsman STOL kit is $1995. I believe the Horton is $1500 but don't quote me on that. I had my Sportsman STOL kit installed for $1000 in 2012 from someone who has extensive experience installing the kit. That's not typical though, most people pay around 2k or more I believe.

Hammer, that's the first bad think I've ever heard from anyone ordering a Sportsman. You can read several testimonials on this site, if you search, from people who have delt with Stene Aviation and they all have good things to say.

I just finished removal of a Mid America STOL kit and replacement with a Sportsman. There are discounts available on the Sportsman, through CPA. Install was $2,100. Highly recommend Al's work at Q Aeromotive, he did a fantastic job.

The MASA kit and Horton are so close you would need a micrometer to see the difference in profile. Sportsman is a whole different airfoil, in essence. Flight testing for me dropped the stall from about 39-40 kts indicated to 32kts before/after. Still learning the new wing, but in some witnessed takeoffs and landings it is now reasonably easy to hit 260'-270' full stop landings and slightly shorter takeoffs, where I was struggling to get under 300' before without it feeling like it was going to let loose before I got into ground effect. This is sea level, standard conditions, 2200 lbs, no wind.

In terms of those metrics, it was a bigger improvement at sea level than the Pponk/MT. The thrust from the improved hp and the MT makes for some impressive climb in combination with the cuff, too.

TxAgfisher wrote:I can't find any pricing online - does anyone know what they run?

What's the install on them? I assume it must be done by A&P?

I guess what I am getting at is what is the total investment? There is a nice straight tail 182 here in town if I can talk my ego out of the TW.

This is a more than common topic here (as well as many other boards) so I suggest you do a bit of reading in the archives. That said, it boils down to the Sportsman is the clear winner over all. $2k for the kit plus $120 ish for shipping (at the most)

Absolutely have an installer with experience do the work. Willie says 40-50hrs for an experienced AP for a first time install. I've done two now on a 170/180 and they seem to take about 60-70hrs to get a good anal fit and finish, but that was with removing a cuff, and painting the backside of the cuff and leading edge I was covering. Ive seem some really good installs and some really bad. There are lots of sloppy mechs who blast thru the install not lining up edges to match the stock skins, not rolling edges, or rounding corners ect... so get someone who has good attention to detail. Seems like the two big areas where APs fall short (in general is electric and sheet metal work.)

RE: performance... Its pretty damn amazing. My Wagon now stalls around 36-37 mph (NOT kts!) This is with VGs which are also a big help for stable control at that slow speed...

RE: install price... Of course larger wings take more time... but even at 40hrs, Im not sure how guys are installing in the sub $2k range. Remember the old maximum: Fast, cheap, good... pick two. You can give your time away, but not cut down the time to give the attention to detail that a nice install takes. I would say a more realistic rate to pay for the install to be in the $3-$4k range, but who knows...

Of course if you want it done by the most experienced installer, fly up to MT and have Willie install. There are many here that have done this that may chime in. Since Willie has done more than most, he goes pretty quick, so you will be paying for less shop hrs etc...

Regardless, it is probably the best mod you can do. Good luck!

I'm just finishing up the installation of the sportsman on my 150. The company was absolutely great to work with and the 40 hour install time seems to be very accurate. I'll let you know how it fly's here in the next couple of days once she's all buttoned up. I paid 2k for the kit shipped and that came with everything. My friend installed the horton kit and he said there was some items he had to purchase himself so total for his kit shipped was about $1850....

flynengr wrote:...Highly recommend Al's work at Q Aeromotive, he did a fantastic job.....

Where's he located? Seems like Sportsman STOL used to be down at California City, owned by Allan Quackenbush, before Stene's started selling them.

hotrod180 wrote:

flynengr wrote:...Highly recommend Al's work at Q Aeromotive, he did a fantastic job.....

Where's he located? Seems like Sportsman STOL used to be down at California City, owned by Allan Quackenbush, before Stene's started selling them.

He's in California City. His father Marshall Quackenbush developed the STC.

robw56 wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:

flynengr wrote:...Highly recommend Al's work at Q Aeromotive, he did a fantastic job.....

Where's he located? Seems like Sportsman STOL used to be down at California City, owned by Allan Quackenbush, before Stene's started selling them.

He's in California City. His father Marshall Quackenbush developed the STC.

Developed by Marvin Davis from Lockheed skunk works. Marshall was first to Market SPORTSMAN.

I have installed two Sportsman kits... Both on 180's... I have a good set of the rib set jigs for future installs... Last set I charged $1500.. Only painted the fiberglass though so the leading edge is bare..

Brian

I've done 4 Sportsman including mine -took better part of 40 hrs. to install .I've also had all those others Horton,Mid-America,Owl,and a few unnamed. SPORTSMAN is best bang for your BUCK -I have the flight test reports that Marvin Davis and his Brother did on there Cessna 180 N4693B in early 1970's .Available for a email to my [email protected] address put something like Flight test Report in subject line

182 STOL driver wrote:Developed by Marvin Davis from Lockheed skunk works. Marshall was first to Market SPORTSMAN.

Sorry, that's what I meant to say.

Removed the Horton to install the Sportsman earlier this summer. Big difference, unexpected was how much more stable the plane flies in all flight regimes. Roughly stalls 5mph slower power off and a little slower yet power on. The big difference on takeoff is that while I can get the plane off in about the same distance, the Sportsman is flying with positive control where the Horton was still wallering in ground effect, thus building speed faster and climbing out sooner. Made a big difference landing at strips 9000'+ msl, that was the acid test for me [emoji106]

I went to Montana and had Willie Stene do the install. Highly recommend having him do it if you can swing a trip to MT. Really great folks at Stene Aviation, can't say enough good!!!

Skalywag wrote:Removed the Horton to install the Sportsman earlier this summer. Big difference, unexpected was how much more stable the plane flies in all flight regimes. Roughly stalls 5mph slower power off and a little slower yet power on. The big difference on takeoff is that while I can get the plane off in about the same distance, the Sportsman is flying with positive control where the Horton was still wallering in ground effect, thus building speed faster and climbing out sooner. Made a big difference landing at strips 9000'+ msl, that was the acid test for me [emoji106]

I went to Montana and had Willie Stene do the install. Highly recommend having him do it if you can swing a trip to MT. Really great folks at Stene Aviation, can't say enough good!!!

What did the removal and instillation cost you, if you don't mind my asking? Did Stene do both? How long did it take once you got it to the shop?

Also, did you have the flap gap seals installed as part of your Horton? I know...they're worse than cancer and a pilot might as well fly with their own tombstone sitting in their lap as with flap gap seals in the mountains. Just curious if they were part of your Horton.

Hammer,

I don't remember the cost but can check. It took about 4.5 days with me helping Willie where I could. It takes longer having to remove the Horton as opposed to starting with a stock wing. Willie removed the Horton, he went above and beyond and the install is flawless, couldn't be happier!

I don't have flap gap seals they were not part of my Horton kit, also removed the stall fences associated with the Horton. Only real downside to the Sportsman is that it decreases the airflow through the ram air vents, but it is still good enough.

off topic: Beautiful plane, Skaly! And I love your N#, haha!

Good catch Cam! Nobody ever gets it, thanks [emoji106]