This is a post from another group. Thought you all may find it as interesting as I did........history in the making.

Anyone else find it interesting that after years of telling us why we
shouldn't even THINK about using MoGas in our planes, While referring
to their Auto gas approval program for O- & IO-360's, Lycoming now
says "the approval will not require any modification to the engines,
the fuel will not need any additives or special treatment, and there
will be no degradation in engine performance." and "it's essentially a
paperwork drill"?

See

www.lycoming.com/news-and-events/press- ... -02-08.jsp

or

www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1136-full.html

180 Marty where are you

I think 4815 allows up to 10% ethanol 1% MTBE I bet Marty knows for sure

Jr, if you have the EAA STC they can upgrade your paperwork for the bigger engine. Probably Petersen can/will also if you have that one. That is, if it is approvable for car gas. This was the situation with the 150/150 I just bought, a previous owner had done a cargas STC for it when it had the O-200. I contacted EAA, they have the tailnumbers & details on file for the stc packages they've issued. I got a new set of stc paperwork for the C150/Lyc 150 combination. It cost me the difference between what I would pay now starting from scratch (buck and a half a horsepower- $225) and what was paid before (buck a horsepower- $100). I had an IA do new 337's and now I'm legal. Airplane seemed to run a lot better on that car gas after the IA signed the 337's .
If a cargas approved engine has been changed out (even just a replacement, not an upgrade), cargas might not be approved for the new engine in that airframe without new stc paperwork and a new 337.

Eric

mr scout wrote

180 Marty where are you

I've been getting "chewed on" over on Supercub.

Interesting. I was told by the STC holder that my airplane doesn't qualify because of the electric fuel pump. I have a C-170B with a O-360-A1A. Anyone know anything that can help me? The engine upgrade was a field approval not an STC.

The announcement says: "The engines will require a specific type of unleaded 93 AKI automotive gas, designated as Euro Norm EN228 (in Europe) or ASTM D4814 (in the U.S.)."

Anybody know who makes 93 AKI? The highest I have seen in Oregon is Shell 92 AKI V-Power. Of course this is all moot come the end of the year. The refineries will only be shipping suboctane for ethanol blending. so the highest you will be able to find in the northwest is 88 or 89 AKI.

Marty180,

Chewed on? Heck I feel sorry for you somedays. Those guys don't let up!!! I would think they would respect your way of thinking and leave it at that.
Personnally I see it from both side. I don't think ethanol should be forced on us but I also don't think it is a bad thing. I do know that either it or the gas these days is crap!! My wife is in the army so naturally I must spen time with her where ever she may be....so I have to leave my vehicles/toys sit for extended periods of time. If I don't add Sta-bil or something similar, I have carb problems from the gunk that results from the fuel turning old.

As for Lycoming...maybe they are realizing that with the prices of fuel skyroketing people won't be flying as much and thus less money in their pockets ......less overhauls and engines sold. Just a thought.

Slainte wrote:Interesting. I was told by the STC holder that my airplane doesn't qualify because of the electric fuel pump. I have a C-170B with a O-360-A1A. Anyone know anything that can help me? The engine upgrade was a field approval not an STC.

I was concerned that would be the case with my airplane. The 150/150 conversion uses a firewall electric pump as well as an engine-driven pump. The gal at EAA in charge of the cargas STC's never asked or said anything about the fuel pumps.
The Petersen STC approved airframe list includes several low-wing aircraft that have fuel pumps. The only one where modifications are mentioned is the PA-28. The EAA list also includs several low-wingers, no mention of any mod's required.
Not too sure why fuel pump(s) would cause a problem for car gas, I seem to recall it was some sort of vapor-lock issue but don't remember any details.

Eric

I have had this discussion with Mr. Peterson himself. Seems the 170 is approved with the o-300. The Cherokee 180 is approved with it's Lycoming and it's fuel pump. Combine the two and the STC is null and void because that's not the way it was tested. Arrgh. Now I know why people fly non-certified aircraft. He says my local FSDO probably won't touch a field approval because the STC's are pretty established so the FAA won't touch it.

WWhunter wrote:
As for Lycoming...maybe they are realizing that with the prices of fuel skyroketing people won't be flying as much and thus less money in their pockets ......less overhauls and engines sold. Just a thought.

BINGO. My thoughts exactly. They see the writing on the wall for the future of avgas. Better join Team Mogas or it's game over for Lyco. I wonder how long it will take for Continental to join the fray.

Sorry but all the mogas arond here has alcohol in it. Alcohol collects and absorbs water (H2O). Water gets hard below 32 degrees f and 0 degrees C. When fuel lines get ice in them the engine quits.
12:57 PM not AM!

leeschaumberg wrote:Sorry but all the mogas arond here has alcohol in it. Alcohol collects and absorbs water (H2O). Water gets hard below 32 degrees f and 0 degrees C. When fuel lines get ice in them the engine quits.

How come your cars can run in winter? It get's pretty cold up there doesn't it?

I attended a Lycoming seminar at Arlington, WA a few years ago and the Lyc rep was so arrogant that by mid-seminar folks pretty much quit asking questions. But, one of the several questions that seemed to just irritate the hell out of the guy was the "how does mogas hurt an engine" inquirey...which focused the speaker's full contempt towards the poor soul who dared broach the subject. I do remember the Official Jackass stating that Lycoming never had and never would approve the use of mogas in its engines, implying that using mogas was a certain path towards turning an engine into a smoking heap of scrap (although he couldn't explain exactly why).

I and many of my friends have used mogas for years in Lycomings with good results.

I ran mogas (before alcohol was added nearly everywhere) in an O-320 Lycoming in a Super Cub for years. On a couple of occasions, I discussed this with two of the primary tech reps from Lycoming. They both told me on more than one occasion that Lycoming didn't RECOMMEND running auto gas in their engines, but that doing so would certainly not void any warranties.

That is a big difference from saying that Lycoming PROHIBITED running auto gas in their engines, and in fact both Peterson and EAA have had STC's to run auto gas in Lycoming equipped aircraft for years.

You'd have a hard time convincing me that Lycoming PROHIBITED running auto gas in their engines.

Slaint,

The problem you face is that the FAA won't issue field approvals on these things, and the modifiers (in this case, Peterson and EAA) can't afford to STC every airplane/engine combination that's out there.

I was told at OSH by an FAA person that the agency is about to start working on a process to issue STC's for similar mods to multiple aircraft makes and models through a new certification process. That might be the hot ticket for something like this.

Nevertheless, both the Peterson and EAA STC's prohibit running fuels containing any alcohol. That is to prevent damage to the fuel system parts, not because it absorbs water.

In fact, ISOPROPYL alcohol is an approved fuel additive to prevent fuel system icing.

The biggest problem with running auto gas LEGALLY nowadays is the prevalence of alcohol in virtually all auto gas, and the specific prohibition on running it in aircraft.

And, that isn't Lycoming's idea.

MTV

mtv wrote:The biggest problem with running auto gas LEGALLY nowadays is the prevalence of alcohol in virtually all auto gas, and the specific prohibition on running it in aircraft.

And, that isn't Lycoming's idea.

MTV

Not everywhere. I fill my 60 gal transfer tank with premium fuel at Costco in Nevada, then check it for alcohol. None present so far.

To test for alcoho:

Use a slender container (test tube works great but anything will do). Fill to about 1/10th full with water. Note the water level - - if not marked, mark it. Fill the remaining 9/10ths with fuel sample to be tested. Shake until water is well dispersed within the fuel, there will be many little droplets of water.

Allow the water to settle back out of the fuel, this will take a minute or two. Note the "water line". If the water line has risen, that indicates there's alcohol in the fuel. This is so because the alcohol has a greater affinity to the water than the fuel, so it comes out of suspension in the fuel and bonds with the water, making the apparent water level rise. If the water level were to double, the fuel has approximately 10% alcohol.

Bumper,

More power to ya if you can find it. As I noted, I used it for years, and other than a few problems with rubber components, didn't have any issues.

I'd do it again.

MTV

My local fuel jobber (Chevron) will as long as he can keep a supply of alcohol free fuel. According to him you have to clean or replace the storage tanks that have been used with 100% gas if they will be used for 10% ETH. He doesn't plan on cleaning or replacing all of his farm accounts fuel tanks. He is the person that get's the gas from the pipeline and blends the ETH. Apparently there is no ETH in the gas in the bulk pipeline, and so far in Ga. anyway the fuel in the pipe is at least 87 octane.
I have set up an account with him as I had rather run straight gas in my vehicles and of course it gives me an alcohol free supply for my airplane.
Maybe you guy's can get it straight from the jobber who get's it from the bulk supply?
Now to figure out how to get around the road use tax.

I fly a 7GCBC (High Country Explorer) with a Superior O-360 that is already certified to run 91 Octane car gas from the factory...no STC needed. I usually blend the gas in the airplane 100LL with no more than 50% car gas. I called the engine folks at Superior about running straight car gas and they said the only thing I might consider is backing the timing off just a bit.
We still can buy non alcohol gas at some service stations here. I get mine from the local COOP as I have been trading with the local COOP for over thiry years and I worked in a COOP refinery for 5 years and know something about testing fuels. I always test the gas for alcohol before I put it in my transfer tank. Put a little water in a mason jar, fill it with gas...shake it up...if the gas and water separte after a couple of minutes, there is no alcohol.
I have noticed no real difference between running 100% 100LL or a 50/50 mix.
There is one thing to ponder...in the winter (Oct-April) the 91 Octane is blended for 14 reid vapor pressure, in the summer (May-Sept) it is blended for 7 reid vapor pressure. 100LL is blended for 7 reid vapor pressure all year long.
Vapor Lock?
HC

leeschaumberg wrote:Sorry but all the mogas arond here has alcohol in it. Alcohol collects and absorbs water (H2O).

If your hero is Sgt Schultz, does that make you Capt Obvious? It's almost like you've only been reading the forums for 3 days. Welcome to the mogas dilemma.

hicountry wrote:>...
We still can buy non alcohol gas at some service stations here. I get mine from the local COOP as I have been trading with the local COOP for over thiry years and I worked in a COOP refinery for 5 years and know something about testing fuels. ...

Being able to get mogas w/o ethanol won't last much longer. You need to understand the 2007 Energy Independence and Security Act. Each year for the next 14 years more and more ethanol must be blended into gasoline all over the US. This years target is 9 billion gallons of ethanol which will happen and by 2022 it will be 36 billion gallons. Have no idea where that much ethanol will come from, but if the gasoline distributors don't meet targets there are monetary penalties. Those states that do not have mandatory ethanol laws are in for a big surprise. (There are only four states that do have mandatory ethanol laws, MN, MO, HI and OR.) There is no requirement in the law to label pumps and there are no exceptions, so aircraft, watercraft and 2 cycle engines are at risk. The four states that have mandatory E10 laws have exceptions for such uses and all require accurate labeling on the pumps.

You also need to understand the economic incentives to blend ethanol. The distribution terminal does the blending now, and gets a federal tax credit of $0.51 for each gallon of ethanol blended. Then when a wide geographic area, like the whole state of Oregon goes E10, the refineries start shipping suboctane gasoline to the terminals for blending and pocket the savings. For premium unleaded E10, that means 89 AKI clear stock; there will be no more 91 AKI unleaded gasoline made. So much for 100 HP Rotax engines and high compression Petersen STCs.