I attended a forum presented by Lycoming at Oshkosh 2008 on Tuesday, July 29 entitled: Lycoming Activities on "Alternate" Fuels - The Future, given by Randy Jensen.

Wow! What a reality disconnect.

Randy summarized the aviation fuels situation. He showed a chart that represented overall fuel usage, something like 67% for cars, 17% for diesel, 16% for jet fuel and 0.0001% for avgas.

He then proceeded to explain what Lycoming was doing with the mogas announcement for the O-360 and IO-360. Randy, who sits on the ASTM fuels panel, explained that Lycoming is proposing a NEW 93 AKI unleaded mogas fuel standard, as part of ASTM D 4814 (mogas), for aviation use. He indicated that it would be a special blend of mogas with tighter RVP standards and a few other features.

I asked him where you can even get 93 AKI mogas today, there isn't any west of the Rockies. He said you can get it in the Northeast. I said we can't even get mogas on an airport today, how were we going to get a product that isn't made on our airports. He said that Lycoming specifically picked the O-360 and IO-360 for this program because they were the most ubiquitous engines in G/A and Lycoming figured that market forces would prevail. I damn near died laughing (internally). It is funny how market forces will always prevail for G/A but they don't apply to ethanol. He had told us that the total amount of gasoline used by piston engines was 0%, yet a new sub-specification for mogas was going to make it's own market when all of the refineries are going suboctane for blending E10, and airports would carry it, when FBO's are already telling us they don't handle mogas because the avgas suppliers threaten to pull their umbrella liability insurance if they sell mogas. (Music to The Twilight Zone playing in background.)

Hello
Many people SELL stcs to use mogas. This stc clearly states - 93 octane and no alcohol. If the stc holders are using this fuel every thing is proper. Not using a 93 octane fuel or one that has alchohol in it makes it illegal. The only place that I know where to get this fuel is Europe.
There is two popular products sold for gas line freeze. Methanol ( the cheap red bottle) and isopropal alchohol (the more expensive yellow bottle). Does it work? You bet it does. While driving down the road the vehicle won't go faster than 50 mph. Pulling along side of the road with the engine idling a bottle of the yellow stuff is dumped in. Get back in and the vehicle and now it will go as fast as I want to. Methanol can NOT clear the ice only prevent it from forming.
Any way back to the stc. The mogas is not gotten from Europe so I don't waste my money on a use less stc.

leeschaumberg wrote:Hello
Many people SELL stcs to use mogas. This stc clearly states - 93 octane and no alcohol. If the stc holders are using this fuel every thing is proper. Not using a 93 octane fuel or one that has alchohol in it makes it illegal. The only place that I know where to get this fuel is Europe.
Any way back to the stc. The mogas is not gotten from Europe so I don't waste my money on a use less stc.

I don't know where your gathering your information but both Peterson, and EAA STC for auto fuel is for 91 not 93.

Europe uses only the RON rating for fuels that is why they show higher octane numbers the US and Canada use average Ron/Mon that is why our numbers are lower.
Apples and oranges

leeschaumberg,

Sorry, but you got the types of alcohol for anti icing precisely incorrect.

The red bottles of HEET are in fact ISOPROPYL alcohol, which is an approved fuel additive (approved by the FAA and the engine manufacturers) for aircraft.

The yellow bottles of HEET contain METHYL alcohol, which is specifically NOT approved as a fuel additive in aircraft, due to it's potential effect on fuel system components.

Note that most modern automobile engines also recommend the red cans of HEET.

MTV

A64pilot

Now to figure out how to get around the road use tax.

Gas burned in off road farm engines can get around the road tax by documenting gallons used and keep the reciepts. You can get the tax credited when you file your taxes at the end of the year. Not a perfect system but it does work. I don't know if you can do this for an airplane or not.

Bill

Flat Country Pilot wrote:A64pilot

Now to figure out how to get around the road use tax.

Gas burned in off road farm engines can get around the road tax by documenting gallons used and keep the reciepts. You can get the tax credited when you file your taxes at the end of the year. Not a perfect system but it does work. I don't know if you can do this for an airplane or not.

Bill

I don't know either, but I can sure try. My tax man should know. Since I'll be buying from one place on a fuel card, the receipt part should be easy. I'll just buy the 91 octane for the aircraft, 87 or 93 for everything else.

I apply for the gas tax rebate here in Nebraska for both my farm off road vehicles and the airplane. They require different forms because the rebate for off road and airplanes is different...and it may change every year. I believe it is $.25/gal for airplanes right now...but don't quote me.
As for the alcohol....they are building more ethanol plants around here all the time because this is corn country and they are realy pushing the ethanol.
Maybe I can make gasoline out of coal...there is a lot of that going by on the railroad.
Maybe I will just get too old to fly and it won't make any difference. Whatever they come up with it will cost MORE!
HC

quicksilver wrote:

leeschaumberg wrote:Sorry but all the mogas arond here has alcohol in it. Alcohol collects and absorbs water (H2O).

If your hero is Sgt Schultz, does that make you Capt Obvious? It's almost like you've only been reading the forums for 3 days. Welcome to the mogas dilemma.

And what if he HAS been reading the forum for 3 days - or not...he still has a right to make a comment. I imagine water freezing in fuel lines in Wisconson is an issue. WTF is going on with this forum that there is so damn much discord? I thought it was supposed to be about aviation, not flaming unsuspecting members.