For those of use using ABW, landing on pavement is not the best for our tires. What is the legality of landing next to the runway in gravel or grass?

My understanding is is that its pilots discretion, But spoke with a friend who has thousands of hours on them That said as long as they are pumped up and your axles are lined up it's not an issue.
Just like the alignment on your car I suppose

Don't forget that airport maintenance doesn't include making alongside the runway "landing friendly"--might be rocks, holes, etc., which could snare you.

Cary

As the manager of a small airport I can tell you it's not a good idea unless it's been established as an alternative by the airport. The reason it's not a good idea is simple, runway lights, drainage ditches lawnmowers, chuckholes, construction etc. The real got ya is drainage, the area between runways and taxiways is graded to take the water off the runway/taxiway and make it go away some how, pipes, culverts etc. I can remember coming down from Alaska and at Williams Lake we asked the tower if we could land on the grass between a runway and a taxiway and we got the OK. I was second and the cub on lead at about 10-feet of altitude took very evasive action first for a construction ditch and second for runway lights. We gave up and used the paved runway. After landing we had a talk with the controller and he had no ides of the small to him but big to the cub driver, construction ditch and he never though about the runway lights.

Up north many airports have leveled and made safe the dirt areas between runways and taxiways but I haven’t seen many down here. I have tried to get the county to approve doing it at Kern Valley but $$$ and the FAA are a problem. The one spot I have, has a drainage grate and a 2-foot depression into it and if you hit it just right you’d be in deep stuff.

Rick

Just land a few feet short of the runway and get the tires Rolling on grass before you hit the pavement.

You can land anywhere on an airport, in any direction you deem necessary as PIC, but if it's not on a commissioned runway you are doing it at your own risk.

Clay wrote:You can land anywhere on an airport, in any direction you deem necessary as PIC, but if it's not on a commissioned runway you are doing it at your own risk.

Yup!!!

Also, the airport may have its own rules for landings only on improved surfaces.

You can land anywhere but if you booger yourself up, your going to have a lot of explaining to do as to why you missed the perfect paved runway 20' to the left or right of where you ended up.

Several thousand landings now at my airport and maybe 50 of them on the paved portion.

AKT

Tcraft

Beg to differ with your old time friend. I tried leaving my ABWs on after a summer in Idaho and found that they wore off at about the 10 O'clock on the left and the 2 O'clock on the right. Even with WIDE slow turns at KRHV. And that was just to get out and back while doing my practice at a grass striip to the south at Frazer Lake. Now have two sets of wheels and brakes with the ABWs on one and some 8:50s on the other set. Axles were all aligned on grease pads. the Cessna shims to do that are expensive for what ya git. My Maul hanger mate agrees and does the same.

Chris C

All planes are different I suppose but I do know toe in or out definitely is a factor Just like your car if your tires aren't Square they're definitely going to burn off.
I know my gear were towed out 1/2 and could not push it in in hangar much better now.

ccurrie wrote:Just land a few feet short of the runway and get the tires Rolling on grass before you hit the pavement.

Unless the runway has a 8-10" high curb from the grass to the pavement - its very common.

Do some scouting on foot before you try this.

Suppose it depends on where you are... no way here in SO cal at my airport but on the way to Caveman last spring I stopped at Cal Black landing on the runway and a cub landed next to it in the dirt between runway and taxi way right behind me..but then that's the desert....

Ditto what Pacerpilot said.

Relevant but not exactly normal ops war stories. Years ago a 182RG called into an airport where I worked reporting a nose gear extension problem. He wanted the crash trucks standing by and stated his intention to Lang beside the runway in the grass. I tried to convince him it was a bad idea and explained why but he said he was PIC and would do what he wanted. So he did. What looks smooth isn't always smooth. He landed, bounced through a few depressions before the nose came down, engine still turning, and dug in enough that it did a nose stand, almost flipping over. It fell back down on the mains and three guys scrambled out, two of them slapping the pilot on the back telling him what an awesome job he did. Damage to the plane was significant. If he had landed on the pavement and parked the prop horizontal with the starter it would have been a simple gear door replacement and maybe a little cowling repair.

Second, more recently. Friend buys a 310 and hires a ferry pilot to bring it home. Takes off and has a nose gear hang up on retract, won't come back down. Back to departure airport and lands beside the pavement. Nose finds hidden depression and buries itself. Deceleration is severe enough that the wings are now swept forward. Plane is a write-off.

Unless you know what's in that grass you're taking a chance.

I land in the grass all the time at my home airport as well as several other airports. I like to see it from the ground first before I land it to check for any obstacles.

At st. A, I wait until after the first cutting of alfalfa. That way I know all the rocks have been baled and hauled away. Driggs has some wingspan rule about landing in the grass and you're only supposed to do it in tail wheels.

ccurrie wrote:Just land a few feet short of the runway and get the tires Rolling on grass before you hit the pavement.

Know your runways before you try that one:

I watched a retired 747 pilot doing his BFR and "impressing the instructor" by landing right on the edge of the tarmac with each circuit, one time the wind dropped right on short final and he landed short of the pavement accidentally, on the grass.....

Turns out there is a "little step" from the grass to the seal - which his 6x600's tires didn't like one bit (ABW owners need not worry so much). The impact caused them to completely lose control of the aircraft, and they swerved across the runway out of control, then skidded to a 180 degree stop on the grass. Like a ground loop, but not. They were really lucky not to do more damage than they did. The skid marks are still on the runway today (NZWF).

It's not a bad idea to let someone else scout it in their plane. Then once you know it's safe you can land there all you want (ability, not necessarily permission )!

CW

clippwagon wrote:It's not a bad idea to let someone else scout it in their plane. Then once you know it's safe you can land there all you want (ability, not necessarily permission )!

CW

Thats cheating...

Me & a friend walked a grassy area at his airport, after which he told me "oh yeah, that's plenty good -- land on it". I told him to go get his rig and drive across it at about 40. He did so, and when he got back I was surprised that he hadn't rattled some teeth out or bit off his tongue-- he was really rocking & rolling. "If it looks smooth, it might be" sometimes even applies to on-site walks.

At Troutdale we have tons of grass that would make a perfect landing area. The port of Portland don't want us on it. There afraid we will break their lights. I ask the controller once, if I just end up landing in the grass what will happen? He said you will be talking to me on the phone after you park.

After wearing my first set of 31's out in two years with less then 10% of the landings on pavement, I do not ever land pavement anymore. Those paved landings cost $26 each in a heavy scout.

We even have a class D airport in Ewst Virginia that now has a 1000 ft patch of grass along side of a runway reserved for the Fat Tire gang. I announce I am one of the fat tire guys and want the grass.