Hello Gentlemen,

Long time lurker, first time poster. Like a lot of you I spend a lot of time on this site and I love it! Thanks Zane.

I base out of Spokane Geiger(KGEG) so I am fortunate to be close to the Idaho back country. I look forward to making my way down there this year thanks to what I have learned here. Hopefully even to the bcp event.

I have a question I am hoping some of you may be able to give a little incite into.......

I want to install a strip that is under the Fairchild AFB inner class c surface area, in fact,, it is probably within 1/4-1/2 mile of one end of their runway. Their runway is 5-23 and mine would be around 31-13, mostly departing 31 arriving 13. The property is outside of any city limits and the strip would cross property zoned mining and commercial. Initially the strip would only be used on occasion, but if I can do it on the up and up, I might think about basing an aircraft at the strip. If not I may be doing it on the down low, so......

Will Fairchild tower care as long as I coordinate arrivals and departures? The strip is under the traffic pattern, and they do alot of pattern work with heavy iron. On a seperate note, how fun it must be do T&G's without touching the nose wheel, keeping that high nose up attitude while you increase power and rip and snort your way to TPA.

I can see Johnny law cruising down the county road, seeing me, and taking out his lack of poontang on my sorry ass. In these parts, we have some of the finest small town pricks around. All due respect to any of you that are law enforcement, I think ALOT of a good cop, can't tolerate the power hungry ones.....

Do you see other things that may cause a problem?

Thanks in advance

Paul

First, just to be specific, there is no such thing as a "Class C Veil". The "Mode C Veil" is specific to Bravo airspace, not Charlie.

So, what you're dealing with is Class CHarlie airspace to the surface. You're going to have to maintain two way radio comm, and have a mode c transponder, which since you are based at GEG, within the Charlie airspace, I presume you already have.

Tower controllers don't generally have a big issue with operations to/from airports within their surface areas. The general rule is that you call approach inbound, and tell em where you're going. They'll give tower a heads up, and hand you off when you're close to the airport. You will NOT be cleared to land, since they can't clear you to land or takeoff on an airport other than the one they work.

Now, once you're ready to takeoff, you call the tower at Fairchild and tell them you'll be taking off from the strip, and in what direction. Again, they won't clear you for anything, but may provide advisories, ie: "We have a B-52 departing runway xx, which will overfly your departure path....what are your intentions?" If there is no traffic, they will generally tell you to report when airborne.

I'd call the Fairchild facility Chief, and discuss this situation with him. Your strip is going to be really close to their operation, but they obviously aren't landing and departing bombers 24/7. I'd also give the Charlie Approach/Departure Chief a call, and discuss with him/her.

Letting them know the strip is there, and having a plan ahead of time will eliminate some confusion, and shouldn't cause any beefs.

The Fairbanks Class Delta surface area has several very busy airports within it, besides the primary airport. Everyone works like I just described, and there are rarely any issues at all.

But, nobody likes surprises. Give em a call to discuss.

MTV

If your plane originally came from the factory without an electrical system (Cubs, etc) then you don't need a transponder.

Mtv

mtv wrote:First, just to be specific, there is no such thing as a "Class C Veil". The "Mode C Veil" is specific to Bravo airspace, not Charlie.

So, what you're dealing with is Class CHarlie airspace to the surface. You're going to have to maintain two way radio comm, and have a mode c transponder, which since you are based at GEG, within the Charlie airspace, I presume you already have.

Tower controllers don't generally have a big issue with operations to/from airports within their surface areas. The general rule is that you call approach inbound, and tell em where you're going. They'll give tower a heads up, and hand you off when you're close to the airport. You will NOT be cleared to land, since they can't clear you to land or takeoff on an airport other than the one they work.

Now, once you're ready to takeoff, you call the tower at Fairchild and tell them you'll be taking off from the strip, and in what direction. Again, they won't clear you for anything, but may provide advisories, ie: "We have a B-52 departing runway xx, which will overfly your departure path....what are your intentions?" If there is no traffic, they will generally tell you to report when airborne.

I'd call the Fairchild facility Chief, and discuss this situation with him. Your strip is going to be really close to their operation, but they obviously aren't landing and departing bombers 24/7. I'd also give the Charlie Approach/Departure Chief a call, and discuss with him/her.

Letting them know the strip is there, and having a plan ahead of time will eliminate some confusion, and shouldn't cause any beefs.

The Fairbanks Class Delta surface area has several very busy airports within it, besides the primary airport. Everyone works like I just described, and there are rarely any issues at all.

But, nobody likes surprises. Give em a call to discuss.

MTV

Thanks Mtv

I stand corrected on using the term "Class C veil" in my post and I have edited it to be more accurate.

Thats how I saw it as far as coordinating the powers that be.

Saying to tower "I am going to land in this field 1/4 mile from your runway" appears to me like there would be some rule that you don't know your about to break, and thats why I asked. I don't think I want to try to get the strip registered/charted, so I look at it like I would be advising tower that I am landing "off airport". Some times I have to remind my self the Atc is not an all out inforcement agency. They mostly just want to keep us from running into each other, right?

Thanks again Mtv, I was glad to get a response from you.

Mtv's advice is right on.. 99 % chance the tower will be ok with all of it.. Just call them up on the landline ahead of time and plead your case . If anyone will bite ya in the ass it will be the local zoning guys/gals. And they can get pretty demanding in their hometown idea of what BS they want to impose.. Good luck and keep us informed on how this works out.

I used to fly out of a farm field that was about 3 1/2 miles from the Pocatello tower. The field was owned by a friend who also flew his Kitfox out of there. We first made a courtesy call to the tower, pointed out the strips location, made the hoped for impression we weren't out of control maniacs (fooled them) and for the next couple years or so, we just called in like we were landing at the main airport, but specified "farm strip to the west". It worked fine with a good tower crew, and a not so busy airport, all concerned had a good attitude. This was pre 911.....

I'll pipe in here since I was stationed and flew KC-135's out of Fairchild for a couple years. First of all if your outside the confines of the fence the base is no different from any other airport. They could care less what your doing as long as your not inside that imaginary line. As you know the 135's fly alot around there but they are rarely down below 1000ft except on short final. 90% of the time I flew there we were on 23. I'm assuming your off the 5 end someplace?

When I got here at Travis the Aero Club had a runway on the other side of the base from the big runways. It was considered a Satellite airport in the Class D. We had to call before takeoff and get basically a delta transistion. When we were inbound we had a specific ingress route to the Aero Club with a VFR reporting point. We would call the Tower before entering the delta at one of the points and 99% of the time the reply would be cleared to land at the Aero Club.

I think the others hit the nail on the head when they said you really just need to communicate with the Rapcon controller at KSKA. You can reach the base operator at 509 247-1212. Ask them for the Chief Rapcon Controllers number and they should at least be able to get you started.

Stol wrote:Mtv's advice is right on.. 99 % chance the tower will be ok with all of it.. Just call them up on the landline ahead of time and plead your case . If anyone will bite ya in the ass it will be the local zoning guys/gals. And they can get pretty demanding in their hometown idea of what BS they want to impose.. Good luck and keep us informed on how this works out.

Thanks Stol,

Thats how I see it too, and why this is a beg for forgiveness rather that ask for permission issue as far as the non aviation folks ie beuracrats(sp?)....Can some one tell me where the spell check button is?

Its my property so I don't see a problem with the faa, and they are the only ones that I don't want to have to work through a problem with.

XK,

The FAA could care less where you land, unless you crash. Then, it's not a matter of WHERE you landed, but rather HOW you landed. The FAA doesn't care if you operate off a farm field and that field does NOT have to be registered or listed on sectionals, etc.

ATC pretty much universally HATES being involved in any enforcement work. They will almost ALWAYS work with you to keep things honest and safe. I've had nothing but positive experiences with ATC over many years. Just give em a call with a heads up.

TexasNick,

Sorry, but you're wrong on that one. Class Charlie airspace requires both two way radio comm and Transponer to enter the airspace. You can get one time permission to enter/leave for maintenance, etc., but not on a regular basis.

You're thinking of the Mode C Veil associated with a BRAVO airspace area, NOT the Class Charlie surface area.

MTV

AvidFlyer wrote:I'll pipe in here since I was stationed and flew KC-135's out of Fairchild for a couple years. First of all if your outside the confines of the fence the base is no different from any other airport. They could care less what your doing as long as your not inside that imaginary line. As you know the 135's fly alot around there but they are rarely down below 1000ft except on short final. 90% of the time I flew there we were on 23. I'm assuming your off the 5 end someplace?

When I got here at Travis the Aero Club had a runway on the other side of the base from the big runways. It was considered a Satellite airport in the Class D. We had to call before takeoff and get basically a delta transistion. When we were inbound we had a specific ingress route to the Aero Club with a VFR reporting point. We would call the Tower before entering the delta at one of the points and 99% of the time the reply would be cleared to land at the Aero Club.

I think the others hit the nail on the head when they said you really just need to communicate with the Rapcon controller at KSKA. You can reach the base operator at 509 247-1212. Ask them for the Chief Rapcon Controllers number and they should at least be able to get you started.

Thanks Avid, nice to hear from someone familiar with the area.

When you leave Fairchaild East bound and you come into Airway Heights, The first road you come to is Criag. My strip will start at Craig road +/- 3/8ths of a mile South of HWY 2 and go to the NW from there. When I take off I will cross Hwy 2 Just East of Rambo Road which is the road for the back/survival entrance to fairchild. I think that will give you an idea of how close I will be.

courierguy wrote:, made the hoped for impression we weren't out of control maniacs (fooled them).....

Now that's funny right there........... I don't care who you are....

Avid,

If I was off of the departure end of 23 I would be less concerned with this endeavor!

mtv wrote:
TexasNick,

Sorry, but you're wrong on that one. Class Charlie airspace requires both two way radio comm and Transponer to enter the airspace. You can get one time permission to enter/leave for maintenance, etc., but not on a regular basis.

You're thinking of the Mode C Veil associated with a BRAVO airspace area, NOT the Class Charlie surface area.

MTV

From another thread some time ago about entering Class C with negative transponder:

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4334&p=53902&hilit=negative+transponder#p53902

TexasNick wrote:If your plane originally came from the factory without an electrical system (Cubs, etc) then you don't need a transponder.

I wouldn't want to put that to a test.

With that said. XKV8R What aircraft do you have?

I've flown into GEG many times, great people to deal with. I know someone that has a field just outside airway heights. He's never mentioned any problems.

Just to echo what MTV and Courier Guy mentioned, we used to fly out of the valley (http://www.unearthedoutdoors.net/airfields/12808) below Flying Cloud (FCM) and also off Lake Riley (when on floats http://www.unearthedoutdoors.net/airfields/12940 ). Always contacted the tower (except when forgetting ) and communications/operations were just like they said.

OK cool, thanks for the info re: transponder. I don't fly in those airspaces anyways. I got a lowly J3 Cub.

There's a situation similar to yours south of NAS Whidbey in northwestern Washington. Coupeville Airpark WN40 is immediately adjacent to & aligned 90 degrees to one end of Coupeville Naval Outlying Field KNRA, inside Alert Area A680. OLF Coupeville is used on an intermitant basis for carrier landing practice by Navy EA6B's based at Whidbey. WN40 is uncharted but FAA-registered (obviously, by the identifier). From what I understand, the owner has a restriction of no commercial use & a maximum number of based aircraft, but that might be a local zoning issue and nothing at all to do with the navy. You might look up the name of the owner of WN40 on Airnav.com & pick his brain about the particulars.
I would second the suggestion(s) that you get ahold of the base and talk it over with them. I'd further suggest that you (nicely) tell them that you're gonna be operating off your airstrip, not ask them. You might wanna give some thought to registering your airstrip with the FAA, this would give you some legitimacy with the air force/local cops/zoning authorities/whoever, if and when there's any complaints. A friend of mine did just that-- there are some paperwork hoops you have to jump through, but nothing too terrible.
Good luck with it.

Eric

XKV8R wrote:Avid,

If I was off of the departure end of 23 I would be less concerned with this endeavor!

Gotcha..Yes I know exactly where that is. Is that Zips still on Hwy 2?.....man I miss Zips..haha I heard Airway Heights has exploded in growth. I left there in 2005.

TexasNick,

There is NOTHING lowly about a Piper J-3. Great little airplane, and superior in many ways to so many other aircraft.

As to 58 Skylane's reference to the Charlie airspace thing, here's the regulation:

§ 91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operation in Class C airspace must be conducted in compliance with this section and §91.129. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class C airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class C airspace area.

(b) Traffic patterns. No person may take off or land an aircraft at a satellite airport within a Class C airspace area except in compliance with FAA arrival and departure traffic patterns.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

(2) Departing flight. Each person—

(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class C airspace area; or

(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.

(d) Equipment requirements. Unless otherwise authorized by the ATC having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace area, no person may operate an aircraft within a Class C airspace area designated for an airport unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215.

(e) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight, as appropriate

So, IF the ATC specialist is willing to stick his/her neck out, and let you into the Charlie airspace, it's fine. You'll also find controllers who don't feel like being that benevolent.

FWIW

MTV

slyfox wrote:
With that said. XKV8R What aircraft do you have?

I've flown into GEG many times, great people to deal with. I know someone that has a field just outside airway heights. He's never mentioned any problems.

I have a Cherokee 140 and half of a Comanche 250.

Maybe your thinking of Ike. Ike flys a murphy so I think his strip is 700', My equipment sure won't fit in there very well, Ya think?

And yes, the people at Spokane Airways are superb. I fully reccomend them.

Maybe i'm blind, but I still can't find spell check.