Folks,

My friend Rich Stowell, the “Spin Doctor”, has created a new training program, aimed at making us better pilots. The program is called “Learn To Turn”, and it is (as everything Rich produces) superb.

Here’s a teaser: Which of the aircraft’s primary controls actually causes the airplane to turn: Ailerons, Rudder or Elevator?

The answer can be found here: https://www.richstowell.com/learn-to-turn/

Lots of good information and resources there

MTV

Elevator

Thanks for the heads up, I can't wait to check it out and it free. Super cool

I'd like to give this a whirl....

I *think* I am reasonable at turning an airplane around.

Probably average 400-500 course reversals a night. Most of which, because my favored patterns end up being closer to 210° of turn (there is usually some measure of climbing downwind turn to ,allow spacing before initiating the actual course reversal). And I can honestly say that immediately after achieving an appropriate downwind space, I roll upwind and *may* pull slightly for the first 30° or so of my turn. After that the wing is unloaded... I am essentially falling through the last 150°-180° of my turn. Airspeed goes from 80 +/- mph, which will not sustain flight with a load on, to 140+/- within about 100' of decent. And at that speed, it's a safe as it gets.

Conversely, I get to watch a junior birdman (doesn't work for me) turn flat (obviously pulling through the turn) with the prop never pulled back because he's trying to claw his way around the corner....

Hope it never goes quite on him.

I *think* I never have to pull, because I turn like jim... the whole way up the downwind turn, I am surfing on excess speed from coming out of the field. I could do the entire course reversal with the tip of my index finger on the stick... why would you pull through a turn if you are not in an aerobatic competition?

I would really like to do this and see where the safety meets the wing.... because evidently I don't understand what is being said, or I don't understand how to turn a plane.


Take care, Rob

I don't have any pictures of my normal day job turns on my phone, but these are from the cockpit of a 502 I borrowed to use up by martys...

Notice the quarter section doesn't ask me to add any downwind turn to speak of. And if you LOOK... you should be able to determine the wind direction, just from the as applied map. With a little ag background, you can even guess the velocity +/- a few mph.

This is what my turns look like in 2d... and yes for you aggies on board, I know.... I turn like an old lady, but it gets me home every night

Take care, Rob



Other things one might notice, I don't wander *searching* for wind direction/velocity. If you haven't figured out how to determine that by the time you've laid out your pattern, you're probably not quite up to bigger planes yet. I also don't waste time circling around a field pretending I'm on a recon misson... are there wires or not? If in doubt drop in a pass inboard, and fill it out when you get it sorted out.

And lastly for the advanced aggies out there, why aren't the two 80's set up as a multi back to back, in order to save a set of turns? I dunno
..
Probably had my head up my ass, which cost me about 9 minutes of JetA

Oh, oh... and did anyone notice the call sign of the plane

Thanks for the heads up on it Mike! Give me something to watch while sitting out in the woods bear hunting.

Thanks MTV for Stowell's free e-book. And thanks Rob for our very different point of view, a paradigm shift, a low altitude rather than high altitude orientation. Both are correct, of course, which is why philosophers love talking. Honey just read me a five paragraph field order on a do, so I have to go now. But, this is going to be interesting.

Shoot... don't thank me for anything... I'm still trying to get unconfused

Is loading the wing with more elevator the only way to get it turned around tighter?

What I do know is there are only so many variables in a turn, and the flatter or faster you make it, the more you will have to load that wing. And that makes me tired, and scared....

Take care, Rob

Really well explained. I like the dutch roll in a turn and the turn on/turn off exercises.

Really liked the video. Still not a fan of flat turns
Thanks MTV

I agree, Rob. You make all those turns without much g, without pulling back more than to prevent return to too fast too quickly, and the airplane would get to the target without any elevator force. What I have gained from Stowell's article, and Mike's admonitions, is that they are confident about pulling on the elevator is necessary for any turning in horizontal, vertical, or oblique planes. At the same time we know, given enough bank, the nose will find the next swath row without elevator. I think we are all forgetting the pitch application of the horizontal stabilizer with neutral elevator.

What really concerns me, however, about cult dedication to the math and physics is that monkey see monkey do gets discredited. When we use ground effect and cruise airspeed to zoom up anticipating that we soon will be too slow to maintain flight, we lead rudder and bank too much at first so as not to have to bank too much later and release back pressure letting her have her head. We know the only elevator now necessary is to prevent her return to extreme airspeed before we get there. Yes, she will automatically, dynamically, pitch her nose back up eventually. We just don't want to hit the ground first. We are bringing the wing level before pull up, but we don't want to hit the ground first. We monkey see, monkey hear, monkey feel what to do without thinking about the math. It would have us pulling gs we didn't need.

And there is the crux. Do we need high altitude math and physics orientation when too low to safely keep one hand on the chart for proper g for bank and our eyes on the airspeed indicator and AOA indicator and g meter and at the same time maneuver around terrain and traffic? Give me the damn monkey. Let me move the control and if I don't like what I get, I'll put it back.

Rob wrote:I'd like to give this a whirl....

I *think* I am reasonable at turning an airplane around.

Probably average 400-500 course reversals a night. Most of which, because my favored patterns end up being closer to 210° of turn (there is usually some measure of climbing downwind turn to ,allow spacing before initiating the actual course reversal). And I can honestly say that immediately after achieving an appropriate downwind space, I roll upwind and *may* pull slightly for the first 30° or so of my turn. After that the wing is unloaded... I am essentially falling through the last 150°-180° of my turn. Airspeed goes from 80 +/- mph, which will not sustain flight with a load on, to 140+/- within about 100' of decent. And at that speed, it's a safe as it gets.

Conversely, I get to watch a junior birdman (doesn't work for me) turn flat (obviously pulling through the turn) with the prop never pulled back because he's trying to claw his way around the corner....

Hope it never goes quite on him.

I *think* I never have to pull, because I turn like jim... the whole way up the downwind turn, I am surfing on excess speed from coming out of the field. I could do the entire course reversal with the tip of my index finger on the stick... why would you pull through a turn if you are not in an aerobatic competition?

I would really like to do this and see where the safety meets the wing.... because evidently I don't understand what is being said, or I don't understand how to turn a plane.


Take care, Rob

Rob,

Try reading the material…….a “turn” by definition is not necessarily “level”. In fact a loop is a “turn” in the vertical axis.

You are severely limiting the concept of “turn”.

MTV

Come on Mike, the school solution is to turn flat. Rob is starting out with a vertical turn because of the zoom reserve. The school pilot never gets there at Vx or Vy as appropriate. That is not a vertical turn, that is hanging on the prop. Crop dusters know a hell of a lot more about turn dynamics and the law of the roller coaster. What is more important, is that they use it. If the school had students do only energy management turns until solo, they would live longer. Yes, they later need to also learn the flat, non-dynamic, ignorant of the law of the roller coaster, completely uncaring that airspeed is altitude and altitude is airspeed, turn for flying by reference to instruments.

Stowell is tied to AOPA and making the FAA look good. Yes, he talks about the error of not teaching the aerodynamics of elevator to increase gs. From the large number of fatalities from doing just that in the pattern in the life and death struggle to maintain altitude even if it kills them, too many pilots get that too well. Yes, they love the ailerons too much. No the ailerons don't cause turn. Lift causes the curving flight no matter how we get it. Dynamic stability and the need for some angle of attack to stay up at 1 g has something to do with it as well. There is a lift, vertical curve up, component of thrust. There is dynamically a dive, vertical curve down, component of loss of thrust. And we can pull back on the elevator, unless a really smart guy has limited elevator travel. Lots of aerodynamic stuff going on, but I still want my monkey see monkey do. I want to control the airplane in the most energy efficient way. Eventually we will all wish we had the energy we don't even consider because the math and physics guys haven't charted it yet. Simple stuff like ground effect, down drainage egress, zoom reserve in either airspeed or altitude and the willingness to make use of it.

mtv wrote:
Rob,

Try reading the material…….a “turn” by definition is not necessarily “level”. In fact a loop is a “turn” in the vertical axis.

You are severely limiting the concept of “turn”.

MTV

My apologies for stirring the pot, or raising emotions...

I've read, watched, and listened to Rich. Great pilot, I happen to not agree with some of his instructional tactics, but have sent more than one person to SZP to look him up. I have gone on the record here numerous times to say I am not an instructor, having said that, I *think* I have a right to prefer one training method or thought process over another If I'm hurting anyone.

Thanks Rob

And yes, you're right, I am limiting the concept of a turn. I am expecting clarity, because without that, you are stuck to flying the numbers.
By your definition, we don't have to call a flat turn a turn at all, we can call it a horizontal climb... (which Rich does) So what are we doing here climbing or turning, or perhaps just descending less....

The problem in all this for me, is when you teach a young impressionable mind that the elevator is your turn 'lever', and he goes and puts on a bigger load of pop or poison than he should have, and consequently can't get that first turn bent around where he wants, what do you think he's going to do? Well hell... He's going to pull harder Except the reason he ain't turning is because he's already barely flying... And since he hasn't learned to really listen to the dang thing, he's undoubtedly going to be just a scosch sideways, or perhaps he just missed the fact that the ball was a touch off, because his butt is still not connected to his brain, so yes, he's going to drop wing. And of course elevator won't lift that so he'll try aileron, because after all, the internet God's taught him that ailerons not for turning, but for rolling the wing...

No sir.... I get it, roll the wing, pull the yolk/stick and she'll come around. (not how I prefer to turn, but it'll do). Me? I prefer to label the three primary flight controls by the way they move the world through my windscreen, up/down, sideways, or in a circle. All three of them simply move the airplane around an axis. Everything else they do is solely dependent on where I put them, and how the aircraft is currently configured. Yes the rudder will turn in to an elevator when you're sideways... Yes the rudder will turn the airplane all the way around a center pivot (sloppy, but I couldn't begin to guess how many times I have done this), and yes the rudder will roll the airplane if you're configured to do so (again sloppy, but it will pick up that dropping wing) And most importantly yes, the rudder is the only one not 'married' to the wing. It is infinitely harder to stall than the other primary controls, and will often be the only one still playing right when the wing shuts down.

When your primary brain takes over in a pinch, you're going to resort to what was drilled in to you. I'd rather not snatch back on the stick when it's already bucking through a turn. I'm not trying to convince you of anything,I'm just sharing the way I get them turned around. When I turn a night with elevator ( I call it flying rage) I am wooped. When I fly loose and let the airplane take care of me,I finish the first set up or two a few minutes behind, but finish and get the extra work in early, not nearly as tired YMMV.....

Anyways, thanks again for the link. Unlike some mega instructors who have less total time than I have in a single Thrush, I am still thirsty to learn, and that takes reading, watching, listening to everything and then applying that knowledge as it fits my missions, no matter how good the tidbits may be.

Take care, Rob

A final problem I have with "Learn to Turn" is that everything is stabilized so that it will fit the g chart. The diagrams of the ground reference maneuvers are pristine. There is no consideration of the airspeed decay in level turns at full power at high DA. With most of the airplanes I flew midday in the mountains in summer, stall would have made loss of altitude happen in any turn had I not accepted what the airplane wanted to do. The airplane didn't want to insist on trading the little bit of airspeed above stall left for altitude. The airplane wanted to pitch down and I was fine with that. I didn't even have to figure out JND or the amount of pressure I needed to pull back on the stick. I didn't need to change elevator at all. The airplane knew what would keep us flying, it was designed to pitch down. To stay level I would have to insist on elevator causing the turn and I would have stalled. I made the turn without pulling back on the elevator.

The only difference in how I allowed the airplane to help me make the turn without elevator and the law of the roller coaster energy management turn is the zoom reserve vertical turn (zoom climb) to trade excess above stall airspeed for altitude to also slow down to reduce turn radius and increase turn rate. If we have zoom reserve in the form of airspeed, we can climb to slow to increase the energy efficiency of the turn. In either case, we never think about banking without thinking about starting the nose the correct way by leading rudder and we never consider banking while holding the stall producing back pressure on the stick. Critical angle of attack is when the stall happens. Pilots cause stall by pulling back on the stick. In all the instruction on the chart appropriate g pull on the elevator, the very most important one was not covered: none. Allow dynamic stability to work. Let the nose go down as designed to do to prevent too much vertical or horizontal airspeed killing curve.

Rob and I developed muscle memory to not pull gs, to not pull back on the stick without zoom reserve airspeed. Our orientation was low altitude orientation. Our orientation was that pulling back on the stick without zoom reserve airspeed would almost certainly kill us in the hundred of thousands of short radius turns we would make. The cheat that made this a nada was that we replaced that zoom reserve airspeed in every, yes every, turn. And no gas was required, just the dynamic stability designed into the airplane.

Thanks for the links to the info Mike. It is very well done.

It would be interesting to have a fellow like Rich, with his talent for clear, concise, explanation and teaching, spend some time with folks that have the same inclinations as Jim and Rob.

Maybe he could capture and define the techniques and methods used in this type of flying and communicate them in a way that would resonate with a broader audience.


Jim and Rob, keep sharing just the way you are. Some of us do get it. Some more will. It will save lives.

Rod
UpNorth

I graduated high school in a class of 16. We were so small we simply had to take the classes the six or so teachers were qualified to teach. Our geometry teacher, Mr. Sheldon, taught from the 1926 ninth grade textbook he had learned from. We had one homework problem each night. Five of his seven students never solved it. My very high IQ brother or Harold Cobb solved it on the board each day. It was amazing to see the really logical answer come up after struggling without hope.

Robert Reser, author of How to Fly Airplanes, is a mathematician like that. He sent me that book to review when he was finishing it up. He also reviewed my Safe Maneuvering Flight Techniques. He added the energy management turn to his very good aerodynamic text. I didn't understand the math, but he pointed out how I was pushing the nose down with rudder beyond the 45 degree bank point. That helps the safety of the energy management turn.

Like Rod says, Rich Stowell explains well as well. And hopefully his elevator turn orientation will fine tune level turners kinetic feel for amount of g pull. I sort of understand his chart and explanation, but my body will not go there. At the altitude Rob and I live at, doing so is death. My hope is that Rob and I and you high flyers who realize that you are hanging it out for the first one thousand feet will motivate more pilots to think hard before just pulling back on the stick to make every turn level unless climbing (scarier) or descending (let her have her head rather than pull). At Underwood Aerial Patrol, my boss said, "Jim doesn't believe an airplane will climb." Untrue; I know it is possible. I just don't want to go there without zoom reserve.