Took it out in an actual x-wind today 18/mph gust 25 at 90 degrees, I did it a few times on the grass but I'd think twice about that exact same wind on pavement I don't think I'm there yet.

Do any of you guys use full flaps on takeoff? I tried it the other day just because, it seems like the only way to do it is if you started with a notch or two and pulled the rest when it's ready to fly.

It's been a hoot learning to fly this thing, really enjoying it.

PA-Bentprop wrote:it seems like the only way to do it is if you started with a notch or two and pulled the rest when it's ready to fly.

That’s how I do it. For me, the first notch brings the flap handle into easy reach for the full-flap “pop.”

PA-Bentprop wrote:Do any of you guys use full flaps on takeoff?

In the Skywagon, we dont use anymore than 20 degrees on T/O. This is in the POH. This is because with 30 plus there is more drag than lift. That said, some go from 10 degrees to 30 real quick on rotation, then back to 20.

I have a Sportsman cuff on mine and it favors 30 degrees for take offs. I have not tried going from 10 to 30 degrees but may give it a try. I have actually strained my back a few times pulling the Johnson bar on take off. So I'll have to be careful. I usually have it set for 10 degrees on take off. Apply full power then set to 20 degrees. When there is airflow over the tail I push the nose down and apply 30 degrees just prior to rotation. With the addition of the Sportsman cuff it improved the ground roll significantly using the third notch. I was taught 20 degrees as other's have mentioned. I think 40 degrees would produce too much drag.

CamTom12 wrote:

PA-Bentprop wrote:it seems like the only way to do it is if you started with a notch or two and pulled the rest when it's ready to fly.

That’s how I do it. For me, the first notch brings the flap handle into easy reach for the full-flap “pop.”

Shoot, my apologies! I didn’t realize this was in a 180 tips thread!

Bigrenna wrote:

PA-Bentprop wrote:Do any of you guys use full flaps on takeoff?

In the Skywagon, we dont use anymore than 20 degrees on T/O. This is in the POH. This is because with 30 plus there is more drag than lift. That said, some go from 10 degrees to 30 real quick on rotation, then back to 20.

I noticed it was in the POH, just wanted to see how it would behave the main problem seemed to be keeping it straight I think because the extra drag keeps you from getting up to effective speed for the rudder?

[/quote]

Shoot, my apologies! I didn’t realize this was in a 180 tips thread![/quote]

No apology needed! I'm the one who was looking for tips New to the 180, it's not mine but my uncle is letting me get some time in it enjoying it a lot.

I have been starting with 20 degrees flaps and then when practicing for short field with an obstacle, I do what I think contactflying would say is using zoom reserve to make a large gain in altitude. Greg is absolutely right it creates a lot of drag, but what I do is get into low ground effect, speed up as much as possible (while staying inside the white arc), and then pull in 10-20 degrees more flaps while pitching for 80 mph. As soon as I hit that speed, I level off and return the flaps in a fluid motion never, loosing airspeed but gaining lots of altitude over a very short distance. NOW be aware this is at low density altitudes and low field elevations. The key to this being that I get into low ground effect and trade speed for altitude and using flaps to assist in gaining as much altitude as possible over the short distance.

It does not hurt that its a hell of a lot of fun too.

gypsy

gypsywagon wrote:I have been starting with 20 degrees flaps and then when practicing for short field with an obstacle, I do what I think contactflying would say is using zoom reserve to make a large gain in altitude. Greg is absolutely right it creates a lot of drag, but what I do is get into low ground effect, speed up as much as possible (while staying inside the white arc), and then pull in 10-20 degrees more flaps while pitching for 80 mph. As soon as I hit that speed, I level off and return the flaps in a fluid motion never, loosing airspeed but gaining lots of altitude over a very short distance. NOW be aware this is at low density altitudes and low field elevations. The key to this being that I get into low ground effect and trade speed for altitude and using flaps to assist in gaining as much altitude as possible over the short distance.

It does not hurt that its a hell of a lot of fun too.

gypsy

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I thought adding flaps at the instant your wanting to break ground was a pretty self exaplanatory thing, However this post got me thinking otherwise.

I have never heard of anyone adding flaps AFTER they level off in ground effect. Your technique actually sounds very wrong, but I think it may be the fact we are communicating over a text-only forum. As I read your post, it sounds like:

1. Start TO roll with 20deg flaps
2. Liftoff with 20deg of flaps and stay in low ground effect with 20deg flaps.
3. When you hit top of white arc in low ground effect, increase flaps by 10-20 deg resulting in 30deg-40eg flaps
4. Pitch for 80mph
5. When you hit 80mph, level off and start reducing flaps

This is a very confusing technique to me.

Asa,
When you put it that way..... I think trying to define something that is done fluidly and not as a 1, 2, 3, 4 steps it makes it seem very discombobulated.
I made a few points in the post about when this would be used specifically a short field with an obstacle where you are trying to gain altitude over a short distance, say there are large pines at the end of a short runway. I likened it to what contactflying is always talking about, using zoom reserve to your advantage. I am using increased speed in ground affect and increased flaps and trading it off for rapid gains in altitude.

The whole point in mentioning the scenario was to point out a time that using 30+ degrees flaps on take off.

This is not my normal take off. Normal take off for me is 20 degrees flaps, take off roll, nose over slightly to bring up tail then neutral and she will climb off on her own.

Hope this makes more sense.
Gypsy

To get off the shortest, the most common practice is to start with full brakes and no flaps. Max power, release brakes, run her till around 40 mph indicated and then pull 3 notches to pop her up into ground effect. Lower the nose and reduce to 2 notches to gain speed. The flap action is one fluid, quick motion. I pitch for 60mph for the climb. This all happens very quickly. For short/sporty ops, 80mph is way to fast... A Sportman wing stalls around 36-38 ish, so you have lots of margin. That said, If you fly this way, be on your game. One stumble and you MUST get that nose down fast or it's going to be a bad day. Speed bleeds off quickly.

RE: Ground effect... Im not sure why anyone would add flaps when you are already in ground effect. Probably a poor practice.

RE: back... If you are hurting your back when pulling flaps, then you're doing something wrong. LOL. Perhaps an EZ Flap is for you???

RE: Sportsman. Willie Stene has mentioned that w/Sportsman, Vx is 53mph with 3 notches. This is a bit too sporty for me, so I use 60mph with 2.

My strong suggestion is to be proficient in both wheel and 3 point landings and use what ever method is best for the conditions. Lots of discussion already on how best to wheel land and how best to 3 point so I won't go there, just be proficient at both.

Have fun!

Kurt