I still practice flying a wet compass, visual area scanning, and pen/paper navigation. Timing check points and noting reciprocal headings is also important in my opinion.

But, I also practice high tech flying.

Reading this thread makes me think about practicing flying and getting better. I am not a joy rider, I like the technical aspect which includes the basics like dead reckoning.

Clippwagon makes some excellent points, and I generally agree. All the reporting in the world likely wouldn't have prevented this accident.

On one point, however, I beg to disagree: "As certified pilots, we have all been taught the proper way to communicate on the radio."

That is wrong on a whole bunch of levels.

Fly to any uncontrolled airport and listen to the traffic reports.....EVERYbody gives tail number...which is totally useless information that clutters up the frequency.

Same goes for position reporting in backcountry.....if you're close enough for me to read your tail number, we have problems, and communication is not one.

Any time you're communicating with someone other than ATC, you should use the "White and red Cub is midfield left downwind for runway 3 at Dog Hollow." If I'm anywhere near that airport, I know precisely where to look and what to look for.

Using the more common "conventional" call: "Piper 1234Z is downwind for XYZ", doesn't tell me where to look, and the plane I'm looking for could be a yellow J 3 or a white Navajo.

Did use the term "precisely" in that previous paragraph? Another pet peeve, that I saw at least seven times a few weeks ago: A pilot who is still a half mile or more from a runway reporting "over XYZ at 6500". If you're not yet over it, don't claim to be.

One pet peeve of mine is the pilot who feels that he has to serve as air traffic control at an uncontrolled airport, or, worse the "Chatty Cathy" who uses the frequency to babble interminably, welcoming folks to the backcountry, stating how much they love your paint scheme, etc, ad nauseum. Meanwhile, pilots are waiting to communicate their position.

In NW Minnesota, I waged a battle for seven years to get pilots to STOP clogging up the CTAF with: "Cessna 1234X is ten miles out from Crookston, at 7500 feet, any traffic please advise." Sorry, dipshit, it's not my responsibility to play your "I'm a ATC Wannabe" game. If you're that far out, MONITOR the freq, and you'll figure out who's around.....and by the way, there is an admonition in the AIM against that call.

Finally, I just LOVE the conversations between the corporate jet guys and the FBO: "Aberdeen Air, this is Lear 1234C, well be in there in 15 minutes, could you have the rental car warmed up for us and well need 250 gallons of gas, oh and could you arrange for someone to pump the sanitary tank for us, please? ". All this transmitted from 38,000 feet, and blankets CTAFs for literally hundreds of miles......

My point is, we could ALL do a lot better at comm skills and radio use.

A famous fighter pilot, Robin Olds once said: "when I get a new wingman I tell him the only things I ever want to hear from him on the frequency is "Two" (meaning I have received and will comply with your communication), "Bingo" (meaning at my fuel limits) and "Lead's on fire". Nothing else really needs to be transmitted.

In GA, we certainly don't need to be that strict, but his point was well taken: Keep it short and precise, then shut up and listen.

None of which would have made any difference in this recent accident, if accounts are accurate.

Tragic loss of life and damage to aircraft, in any case.

MTV

mtv wrote:Clippwagon makes some excellent points, and I generally agree. All the reporting in the world likely wouldn't have prevented this accident.

On one point, however, I beg to disagree: "As certified pilots, we have all been taught the proper way to communicate on the radio."

That is wrong on a whole bunch of levels.

Fly to any uncontrolled airport and listen to the traffic reports.....EVERYbody gives tail number...which is totally useless information that clutters up the frequency.

Same goes for position reporting in backcountry.....if you're close enough for me to read your tail number, we have problems, and communication is not one.

Any time you're communicating with someone other than ATC, you should use the "White and red Cub is midfield left downwind for runway 3 at Dog Hollow." If I'm anywhere near that airport, I know precisely where to look and what to look for.

Using the more common "conventional" call: "Piper 1234Z is downwind for XYZ", doesn't tell me where to look, and the plane I'm looking for could be a yellow J 3 or a white Navajo.

Did use the term "precisely" in that previous paragraph? Another pet peeve, that I saw at least seven times a few weeks ago: A pilot who is still a half mile or more from a runway reporting "over XYZ at 6500". If you're not yet over it, don't claim to be.

One pet peeve of mine is the pilot who feels that he has to serve as air traffic control at an uncontrolled airport, or, worse the "Chatty Cathy" who uses the frequency to babble interminably, welcoming folks to the backcountry, stating how much they love your paint scheme, etc, ad nauseum. Meanwhile, pilots are waiting to communicate their position.

In NW Minnesota, I waged a battle for seven years to get pilots to STOP clogging up the CTAF with: "Cessna 1234X is ten miles out from Crookston, at 7500 feet, any traffic please advise." Sorry, dipshit, it's not my responsibility to play your "I'm a ATC Wannabe" game. If you're that far out, MONITOR the freq, and you'll figure out who's around.....and by the way, there is an admonition in the AIM against that call.

Finally, I just LOVE the conversations between the corporate jet guys and the FBO: "Aberdeen Air, this is Lear 1234C, well be in there in 15 minutes, could you have the rental car warmed up for us and well need 250 gallons of gas, oh and could you arrange for someone to pump the sanitary tank for us, please? ". All this transmitted from 38,000 feet, and blankets CTAFs for literally hundreds of miles......

My point is, we could ALL do a lot better at comm skills and radio use.

A famous fighter pilot, Robin Olds once said: "when I get a new wingman I tell him the only things I ever want to hear from him on the frequency is "Two" (meaning I have received and will comply with your communication), "Bingo" (meaning at my fuel limits) and "Lead's on fire". Nothing else really needs to be transmitted.

In GA, we certainly don't need to be that strict, but his point was well taken: Keep it short and precise, then shut up and listen.

None of which would have made any difference in this recent accident, if accounts are accurate.

Tragic loss of life and damage to aircraft, in any case.

MTV

Too long to read. Sum up Mike

Tim

agreed...

My best handle is ...

"Yellow floatplane 5BC", "Yellow skiplane 5BC", or on wheels "Yellow Scout 5BC"

ATC calls me a Bellanca from the Mode C transponder lookup sometimes, which was interesting.

Bottom line; Make it easy to understand and ID.

mtv wrote:" Sorry, dipshit, it's not my responsibility to play your "I'm a ATC Wannabe" game.
MTV

I agree with MTV!

Also, quit entering the pattern on the crosswind, midfield crosswind, straight in or other non standard ways! Ya ya, I know, its not illegal but geeeezzz, enter on the 45! Too bad if you may have to fly a bit further! non backcountry type airports that require a different procedure are different than "standard" type patterns.

Don't be such a cheap SOB and get some LED landing lights and TURN THEM ON!

Everyone here has covered talking on the radio but make sure you also LISTEN!

Lift your wing BEFORE turning and LOOK!


Sorry for being so abrupt but this is serious stuff and what I listed above is easy to do.

G44

The LED landing light is a greatly welcome modification on my little ship, which only has one landing/taxi light. Using it does not threaten a burnout like the mis-engineered GE.

I also like flying at night too. The LED makes it a whole lot easier for me.

If nothing else, this tagent on this thread has helped changed my mind about the ADS-B mandate. Never thought I'd say I'm looking forward to 2020 . . . .

CAVU

If nothing else, this tagent on this thread has helped changed my mind about the ADS-B mandate.

I am still wrapping my head abound the ADS-B system.

I thought the ground station build out was what was needed to make the system truly functional. I know there is a huge hole in the ground station system in the Mountain and Intermountain West. FAA wants to keep separation from the big iron in congested areas but I did not see much gain for the back country.

You Alaska guys jump in here.

TD

The LED landing light is a greatly welcome modification on my little ship, which only has one landing/taxi light. Using it does not threaten a burnout like the mis-engineered GE.

I also like flying at night too. The LED makes it a whole lot easier for me.

X2 - I upgraded to all LED lights this last winter (including LED nav/stobes) and they are an incredible improvement. I keep everything on now all the time. The power drain is virtually undetectable.

TomD wrote:

If nothing else, this tagent on this thread has helped changed my mind about the ADS-B mandate.

I am still wrapping my head abound the ADS-B system.

I thought the ground station build out was what was needed to make the system truly functional. I know there is a huge hole in the ground station system in the Mountain and Intermountain West. FAA wants to keep separation from the big iron in congested areas but I did not see much gain for the back country.

You Alaska guys jump in here.

TD

FAA says the ADS-B GBT (Ground Based Transmitter) system is now complete. What you see is what you get.

Now, bear in mind that, theoretically, any ADS-B in equipped airplane SHOULD receive data directly from any ADS-B out equipped airplane......no GBT required......yours talks to his and vice versa.

I've spent a thousand hours or so in ADS-B equipped airplanes, and to me, the traffic feature is the least valuable function of that system, particularly in really busy airspace.

Opinions....we all got one, and like assholes, mine' the only one that don't stink.

MTV

MTV[/quote]

Too long to read. Sum up Mike

Tim[/quote]

Tim.....shut up and fly.

Short enough, Quartergasket?

MTV

mtv wrote:Any time you're communicating with someone other than ATC, you should use the "White and red Cub is midfield left downwind for runway 3 at Dog Hollow." If I'm anywhere near that airport, I know precisely where to look and what to look for.

That doesn't sound like such a good idea. I assume experts have spent a long time figuring this stuff out, and they've had decades to refine it...

If I can see the 'white and red striped cub' clearly, I don't need a radio call to know he's downwind. I can see him already. You aren't supposed to see the N-number, it's just unique name.

At my home airport and the one next door, there are two fleets of identical trainers, all white with stripes, about 20 aircraft perhaps. If everyone said "white striped aircraft downwind #3" and "white striped aircraft crosswind #5" that would not be very helpful. The unique name is important.

I don't walk into a bar and say "hey white woman, skinny, mid-20's"

Besides, "white and red striped cub is downwind..." is more words to say than "5-Mike-Victor is downwind..."

Weren't we talking about not cluttering the airwaves to start with??

Just keeping it real here.

Crzyivan13 wrote:

What ever work's!

[quote="Battson"][quote="mtv"]
Any time you're communicating with someone other than ATC, you should use the "White and red Cub is midfield left downwind for runway 3 at Dog Hollow." If I'm anywhere near that airport, I know precisely where to look and what to look for. [/quote]

That doesn't sound like such a good idea. I assume experts have spent a long time figuring this stuff out, and they've had decades to refine it...

If I can see the 'white and red striped cub' clearly, I don't need a radio call to know he's downwind. I can see him already. You aren't supposed to see the N-number, it's just unique name.

At my home airport and the one next door, there are two fleets of identical trainers, all white with stripes, about 20 aircraft perhaps. If everyone said "white striped aircraft downwind #3" and "white striped aircraft crosswind #5" that would not be very helpful. The unique name is important.

I don't walk into a bar and say "hey white woman, skinny, mid-20's"

Besides, "white and red striped cub is downwind..." is more words to say than "5-Mike-Victor is downwind..."

Weren't we talking about not cluttering the airwaves to start with??

Just keeping it real here. [/quote]

What difference does it make ASSUMING that they all ACCURATELY report their position if you can tell one from the other? If one says "I'm midfield left downwind and my engine just failed, I'm guessing you SHOULD be able to figure this out.

I spent seven years at an uncontrolled field not far from the University of North Dakota. They have green and white planes (and we used their planes as well) and they used the "Sioux" call sign (their nickname is the Fighting Sioux) as in "Sioux 34 is left downwind". There are something over 120 of those green airplanes around there, and we often had three or five in our pattern at once. We used type and color, with precise location and it worked better than many of them, who half the time were a couple miles outside the actual pattern.

Go to Santa Paula, CA. Small but very busy airport, in a canyon. All the folks based there use type and color, and it works fine.

If it gives you a warm fuzzy, use you number, but frankly, I can separate traffic calls audibly easy enough to know which red and white cub is on the radio.

But, again, the PURPOSE of communicating your position is to let other pilots know where you are. So they can find you and avoid hitting you. You don't need a tail number to accomplish that, assuming the position reports are accurate.

The same could be said for color and type, except those are useful in ensuring you're looking at the right plane. A tail number is not useful in that context.

And, if you've got two planes reporting midfield left downwind for the same runway, tail numbers aren't going to help there either.

MTV

The only purpose of the tail number is administrative sanctions. Non-ATC if we are dumb enough to volunteer it, the "Administrator" will certainly use it. I used MTV's color and kind for safety and let the administration and my fellow pilot work at getting my number.

New to posting on the Forum, but here goes...

Agree that heads up and out of the cockpit is essential. Strongly agree that being seen by others is critical. Our Skylane has 100 watt wingtip pulse lights and landing/taxi lights, 4-flash wingtip strobes, 3-flash tail strobe, LED nav lights, all of which I operate at all times the aircraft is flying. Yet I'd like to add more...

The paint scheme is white with lots of bright red, in a scheme that I designed to attract the attention of other aircraft around me. Grays, green, brown, purple, camo, etc. are very hard to see against an earth background, and we fly with a lot of earth behind us in the valleys and canyons of the Idaho backcountry.

Disagree to a point about "red and white high wing" instead of "Skylane 1234A" when making position reports on 122.9 in the Idaho backcounty. It may be valid when in the pattern at an airstrip, but I will continue to use my type aircraft and N-number. If I end up not showing up at my destination, I'd hope that those that know my or my aircraft will remember my N-number and the fact that they heard me make a position report somewhere when I've gone missing.

Just spent a week in the Backcountry, landing at Big Creek on June 29th right before the Katmai crashed short of the airstrip. My aircraft commander now knows a lot more about ELT's, and she has directed me to install a 406 mhz that will send out a GPS position. As for SPOT, PLBs and In Reach, the Katmai pilot didn't have a chance to activate any of those when his aircraft flipped at low altitude, and the friends who were traveling with him in their Katmai's were already on the ground and out of internet service, so couldn't have tracked him right away. Even though we know he went down right away, it still took the next couple of arrivals 10 minutes of circling to spot him in the trees. I don't know if he also had a 406 mhz ELT and if Scott AFB took any action before he was rescued by pilots and forest service personnel, but we are going to err on the side of being found sooner from now one.

Personally, I'd remember a red and white cessna before I'd remember C-QMOJ, if I'd heard him call once and then heard a plane went down an hr later... Nothing worse then hearing a plane report close to you and not be able to remember his call sign to respond. I guess we should write every thing we hear down...