Seems to me that a lot of you guys are doing a lot of these modifications and upgrading yourself, how are you getting things signed off? Every time I try to do something I have go to a shop? Enlighten me please!

I’m not a cheater but I think there could be some money saved and some self satisfaction with being able to do some of it. Upholstery,panels,vgs, the list go on and on. There are some things that I would not even attempt. Just curious is all!

Upholstery you can definitely do yourself. Schedule A to FAR 43 outlines the work you can do on your own plane (as owner/operator) and sign off with your pilot certificate number. There's a decent list of things you can do; but I imagine most mods require IA or A&P sign off - especially anything mechanical or that affects the flight envelope.

No real trick to it. Most everything needs signed off by an A&P or an IA.
So, you need to either be one or be friends with one.

Some stuff like upholstery can be done by the owner/pilot but VGs, panel, and other stuff certainly needs an A&P to sign it off.

And, depending who you talk to, upholstery is supposed to have burn certification.

Essentially, you can do anything on an airplane except sign it off as airworthy.

So, if you have a local mechanic who is either brave enough or dumb enough (if it were me doing the work) to “supervise” your work and sign it off, you could do a lot of the work on your plane.

As noted earlier, there’s a list of “preventive maintenance” tasks you can do AS A PILOT (ie: NOT as a student pilot). So, oil changes, cleaning spark plugs, servicing wheel bearings, etc you can do without supervision. That said, you should get some dual on this stuff from your mechanic first. Torque values, etc can be important.

MTV

My best friend is smart and an IA. We filed twenty some 337’s on my 180 in 2016, so quite a few mods. I physically did them all but everything I do is proceeded by at least one phone call or dinner conversation. Whatever work I do is then followed by a thorough inspection and occasionally, some rework. I write the 337’s and, after edits, he signs and files them.
I pay him about half of what I guess it would cost to have an FBO do the work without me touching it. That seems more than fair, I save half the money, love doing the work and I know how careful I am and trust his inspections absolutely. I believe that we are in full compliance with the “under the supervision of” intentions.
I’m pretty sure I have enough time and knowledge for at least the A half of an A&P and have about zero interest in pursuing that as long as I can preserve this system. I think this is as good as it gets. It did take several years to get to where we are and during that time I rebuilt part of a 206 in his shop.
As I see it, the two options for controlling costs with Mods are find a cooperative A&P who can explain whatever you need to know. Then make sure you take care of them. Or, go experimental. Everything else is just expensive.
Kind of a side note is that every STC’d anything I have touched comes with amazingly detailed literature for installation, inspection and maintaining continued airworthiness. It’s a pretty cool system.

As an A&P with an IA there is just one warning I would like to make. As far as doing upholstery it is legal and really not that hard if you have patience, but keep in mind that you can spend hundreds of dollars in seconds with a power drill if you don't know what is behind where you are placing the hole for a screw. Some places that look like the place to put a screw are structural and no holes are allowed. Other times, like the aft door post in a Cessna have fuel lines and control cables running through them, a sharp pointed screw or one that is to long in the wrong place can lead to trouble latter.

Tim

bat443 wrote:As an A&P with an IA there is just one warning I would like to make. As far as doing upholstery it is legal and really not that hard if you have patience, but keep in mind that you can spend hundreds of dollars in seconds with a power drill if you don't know what is behind where you are placing the hole for a screw. Some places that look like the place to put a screw are structural and no holes are allowed. Other times, like the aft door post in a Cessna have fuel lines and control cables running through them, a sharp pointed screw or one that is to long in the wrong place can lead to trouble latter.

Tim

What Tim said... plus a little story to go with it...

Annual inspection on a Cessna 180... fuel smell plus staining from right side door rear post... inspected the line and found that during upholstery installation someone drilled a perfect 3/32 hole right in the center of the fuel line... it was “repaired” with a split piece of vinyl hose and hose clamps covering the hole in the fuel line... needles to say, there is a new fuel line in that door post now and I have a 6 inch section of the old one to show people what not to do when installing interiors....

Brian


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Brian-StevesAircraft wrote:

bat443 wrote:As an A&P with an IA there is just one warning I would like to make. As far as doing upholstery it is legal and really not that hard if you have patience, but keep in mind that you can spend hundreds of dollars in seconds with a power drill if you don't know what is behind where you are placing the hole for a screw. Some places that look like the place to put a screw are structural and no holes are allowed. Other times, like the aft door post in a Cessna have fuel lines and control cables running through them, a sharp pointed screw or one that is to long in the wrong place can lead to trouble latter.

Tim

What Tim said... plus a little story to go with it...

Annual inspection on a Cessna 180... fuel smell plus staining from right side door rear post... inspected the line and found that during upholstery installation someone drilled a perfect 3/32 hole right in the center of the fuel line... it was “repaired” with a split piece of vinyl hose and hose clamps covering the hole in the fuel line... needles to say, there is a new fuel line in that door post now and I have a 6 inch section of the old one to show people what not to do when installing interiors....

Brian


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Not kidding, I had that exact issue in my first 170!
Someone drilled a hole into the fuel line rear door post. Split hose and a home made clamp.
Fond it by fuel stains after a really cold night.

buzzbomb wrote:Seems to me that a lot of you guys are doing a lot of these modifications and upgrading yourself, how are you getting things signed off? Every time I try to do something I have go to a shop? Enlighten me please!

Frankly, if you have any mechanical ability at all, I think that the only reasonable and sane way to own an aircraft is by cultivating a relationship with a competent and smart A&P-IA who will trust you to do the things you can, supervise you to do the things you probably can, and know that you will ask them to do the things you cannot do yourself, even if you're allowed to.

It takes time to build that relationship, and it won't work for everyone...some people just can't help but come up with one bad idea after another, and others can't follow simple directions twice in a row, while others don't understand that there are things they really shouldn't figure out as they go along. It doesn't take the IA too long to decide that his signature will not be in their log books. Also, not every field has a IA that will work with people that way.

I've done the vast majority of the work on my airplane myself with this arrangement. At every annual inspection my mechanic got a sizable tip for all the help he'd given me throughout the year...mostly just answering questions or stopping by to take a quick look at something, but all that time adds up. He's confident that his signature isn't authorizing crazy crap I did without his knowledge, and he doesn't feel like I'm abusing the privilege of his help.

Occasionally we'd get into arguments about billing, and it was always me insisting that he was under-billing his hours, which he usually was. Not letting him get away with that was still fantastically less expensive than taking my airplane to a shop and dropping it off, and it let him know I didn't take his services for granted.

After seventeen years living in CA all I miss is one friend, one brewery, and most of all, my mechanic...

Well I understand that the liabilities are great for ap- ia. I don't want to get anybody's tit in the ringer for sure but would like to do some things. My mech and I do have a good relationship and we visit a lot on things, I'm not really complaining at all. Just curios!

The yearly liability insurance for an independent A&P/IA runs in the thousands of dollars...tip your inspectors well that allow you to do the work and them to supervise/inspect!

Those IAs are the unsung hero’s that keep many pilot/owners in the GA hobby that would otherwise not be (if they had to pay a shop to do everything).

right on!!

What Hammer said. My AME has become a friend, and he consistently undercharges me. I try to give him handfuls of cash whenever I see him, I don't think I could own the airplane if it was not for him. He also gets my sense of humour which is extremely rare.

Other than wads of cash, what are some nice A&P gifts? Mine does the under-billing thing too. He doesn't drink so that's out, but I'd like to show some appreciation. Of course just slipping a c-note in his tool box when he isn't looking could be effective too I suppose.

I feel the same way about my AI. The other day I cleaned my plugs and on the way out handed him some $. He said what is this for, I said "I want you around and in business for the long term". He is what allows me to own a plane. I could not with out the use of pride of ownership and elbow grease.

Colopilot,
I know you guys are liberal with the Mary Jane in Colorado but slipping your A&P some cok in his tool box is a little dangerous especially if he is working on your plane don't you think?

gypsywagon wrote:Colopilot,
I know you guys are liberal with the Mary Jane in Colorado but slipping your A&P some cok in his tool box is a little dangerous especially if he is working on your plane don't you think?

I'm thinking autocorrect did something awful there.

C-note! [emoji1360]

Whenever I’ve used IAs outside my family to inspect and sign off my work, I’ve always gone with a 25% cash tip on top of whatever they want (which is still way cheaper than even setting foot in one of the local shops with my 1955 170B).

Bagarre wrote:

gypsywagon wrote:...but slipping your A&P some cok in his tool box

Never had this happen to me. I will be on the lookout.