Continuing a discussion from another thread about moGas in Oregon;

Airports (or any business except government) that doesn't understand or accomdate what their customers want are doomed to fail. We all vote with our dolllars, and the ones that come around and realize that E0 autofuel has a growing demand and is what many people want will get those dollars. All the concerns about one fuel tank/infrastructure are secondary because people will do what they feel is best for them.

Providing auto fuel is rarely an option at FBOs. The majors don't want to provide auto fuel if you are going to sell it specifically to fuel aircraft. Avgas is refined, filtered and transported with a higher standard of quality control than auto fuel. They take QC very seriously and don't want the liability of selling autogas to fuel airplanes. When you go to a gas station for cars and buy auto fuel, you take the liability for using it in an airplane.

I participate in fuel sales policy decisions at the local airport, and another factor we considered is that even if we could sell auto gas, a lot of users would still shop outside the airport for the cheapest fuel and haul it to the airport. I don't blame them for being good shoppers, but it's one more check mark in the negative column to try to sell autogas for airplanes.

I expect you would still have people tanker their own fuel. But I also suspect that the proportion of folks doing that would be small. When the price difference is $2/gal it makes a pretty substantial difference. Tankering to save $0.50/gal or less is not nearly as enticing.

Agreed. for $2/gal savings (about what we see around here), I am saving at least $1000+ per year which adds up. If the difference wasn't huge I wouldn't bother going through the effort of bringing my own fuel in. My opinion is that it is inevitable as customers will continue to find ways to save money... either get with the program or watch 100LL sales slowly dwindle.

I've understood that 100LL has double the shelf life of car gas. Can anybody confirm this?

yeah i'd say double if not more. solution = fly more.

I have owned/operated 30 vehicles in both hemispheres and 6 countries for the last 30 years and never had a fuel quality issue that was NOT preempted before the stuff went into the tank.

Auto fuel is fine if you have situational awareness and understands your needs correctly. Aviation has attracted self proclaimed affluent people who can out spend their neighbors. So the oil companies join in and raise the prices and "standards". It is a mess right now.

I known wealthy people that would carry fuel 1.5 miles just to save $5. It is the principle of saving money. But, they seem to be the minority in wealth and common sense.

denalipilot wrote:I've understood that 100LL has double the shelf life of car gas. Can anybody confirm this?

That's a very difficult thing to quantify (or qualify?) in my understanding. While I know that avgas is held to a higher quality/storage/purity standard, I'm not sure if there's anything to stabilize it beyond what 92 clear gas has. In an airtight container with Stabil or something similar to prevent varnishing, what would be the difference, over say, 12 months?

The problem is that aircraft fuel tanks aren't airtight, they're vented. Let's consider water contamination to not be a part of this discussion, so fuel with ethanol is not viable for this comparison. What exactly occurs for any kind of gasoline to "expire?" And what does that mean? Is it something that happens overnight? Or does its energy content simply wane over time? Does the effective octane rating drop, causing a more volatile fuel that's less tolerant of high compression? Does it become less volatile due to evaporation and therefore burn slower?

In an airtight container, I don't think you'd be able to detect a difference in stability. In a vented fuel tank, yes. But the time frames we're talking about make the comparison of fuel viability a moot point. If you leave any fuel in your tanks for more than a year, you should take some extra pre-flight precautions by replacing it with fresh fuel. Run that old fuel in your lawnmower or car. You would probably never be able to tell the difference.

/out my ass

The Scout gets 100LL for now because of disuse.

But, if I lived in Corvallis or Lebanon Oregon and flew once a week, I would consider MoGas. I am glad people are finding alternatives on this site. Taking the road less traveled is a very good thing, if you have situational awareness. It's not recommended if you like to follow others. Which is not a bad thing but not for everyone.

8GCBC wrote:I have owned/operated 30 vehicles in both hemispheres and 6 countries for the last 30 years and never had a fuel quality issue that was NOT preempted before the stuff went into the tank.

I was pondering the shelf-life more in terms of bulk storage. For example, it might behoove some of us to size our pick-up bed tanks accordingly. Or sit on a certain quantity of 55-gallon drums in a remote location. As it relates to the FBOs, shelf-life might be another disincentive to having large bulk storage of mogas, if the demand is uncertain. Maybe smaller bulk storage capacity is prudent?
Just thinking, since I haul the vast majority of my own fuel as a matter of necessity.
-DP

denalipilot wrote:

8GCBC wrote:I have owned/operated 30 vehicles in both hemispheres and 6 countries for the last 30 years and never had a fuel quality issue that was NOT preempted before the stuff went into the tank.

I was pondering the shelf-life more in terms of bulk storage. For example, it might behoove some of us to size our pick-up bed tanks accordingly. Or sit on a certain quantity of 55-gallon drums in a remote location. As it relates to the FBOs, shelf-life might be another disincentive to having large bulk storage of mogas, if the demand is uncertain. Maybe smaller bulk storage capacity is prudent?
Just thinking, since I haul the vast majority of my own fuel.
-DP

My observation leads me to the fact that location regulated the flow of fuel ie. MoGas, JETA, 100LL, Diesel, Kerosene, alcohol etc. . I know vendors who sell more MoGas than 100LL at airports (non-aviation customers included) because of their location.

There are places in Micronesian ie. PMA who orders 100LL from Chevron which comes by barge from the mainland or Hawaii. You need to order 6months ahead and plan your ops around that.

There are many scenarios, and I applaud you for finding your fuel under your own terms to the best of your abilities! If I had a Facebook account I would "friend" you!

8GCBC wrote:If I had a Facebook account I would "friend" you!

If you had a Facebook account, you could "friend" me, if I had a Facebook account!

handsrdirty wrote:Continuing a discussion from another thread about moGas in Oregon;

Airports (or any business except government) that doesn't understand or accomdate what their customers want are doomed to fail. We all vote with our dolllars, and the ones that come around and realize that E0 autofuel has a growing demand and is what many people want will get those dollars. All the concerns about one fuel tank/infrastructure are secondary because people will do what they feel is best for them.

Providing auto fuel is rarely an option at FBOs. The majors don't want to provide auto fuel if you are going to sell it specifically to fuel aircraft. Avgas is refined, filtered and transported with a higher standard of quality control than auto fuel. They take QC very seriously and don't want the liability of selling autogas to fuel airplanes. When you go to a gas station for cars and buy auto fuel, you take the liability for using it in an airplane.

I participate in fuel sales policy decisions at the local airport, and another factor we considered is that even if we could sell auto gas, a lot of users would still shop outside the airport for the cheapest fuel and haul it to the airport. I don't blame them for being good shoppers, but it's one more check mark in the negative column to try to sell autogas for airplanes.

Perhaps you can tell us how an airport or a supplier could be held liable for the quality of Mogas. Other than the standard quality issues related to storage and pumping. I can't imagine a scenario where they could be held accountable for not having mogas that exceeded automobile standards. I'm not sure it would even be possible to pin the cause of an accident or engine failure on the quality of the fuel in the tank beyond obvious gross contamination.
Experimental aircraft owners have the option to run anything the owner wants to put in it and certified aircraft owners need an STC to run "autogas".
I've never read the verbiage in an autogas STC but it wouldn't be worth the paper it's printed on if you had to run aviation grade autogas. If there even is such a thing.
Interestingly enough, my high performance, high compression, high rpm Rotax is rated for a 2000 TBO on autogas. As well as 100 hour oil changes. Both are cut in half if I use the "higher standard of quality", more expensive Avgas.
The choice to sell only avgas is placed solely on the airport management. NOT the major fuel suppliers.

denalipilot wrote:

8GCBC wrote:If I had a Facebook account I would "friend" you!

If you had a Facebook account, you could "friend" me, if I had a Facebook account!

Glad you made it to Maui safely!

I am reluctant to post on this thread but, I support local FBOs.

When I stop at a small FBO, I buy something. A top off, a qt of oil, something. FBOs are an endangered breed. How many have packed up in the last 10 years?

Walk to the gas station with your fuel bladders. Ask the guy from the gas station if you can borrow his truck, use a tool or jumper cables.

Not every FBO will help you out but my experience has been very positive.

Backcountry pilots should support the aviation community and especially the small, independent, local FBO.

Here are some thoughts from me about flying PART 91 non revenue... Just having fun mode...

Most FBOs I have been to during forty years have been great. Cars, beds, showers, tools, sign-offs, maintenance and aircraft rentals etc. are good. There is no reason not to support a FBO if pilots want to in my opinion. My favorite FBO is Lebanon ...100LL, MoGas, courtesy car, free overnight apartment (I give $50.00 however each night,), shower, laundry, head (toilet), maintenance and super friendly. I buy stuff there because I love them like family period. But, political confrontations about "supporting" aviation is a buzz kill to me.

Flying is the bottom line for me not the politics of "who should get what." Supporting GA rarely, if ever, crosses my mind (thank God). Just like when I am sailing on the ocean .. I do not think about supporting West Marine and boat builders. I am sailing and that's all that matters. When I surf all I think about is surfing, nothing else if I can.

Now on Maui a few years ago... Air Service stopped letting GA pilots in their building unless you own an intercontinental jet. They said some guy with a Cessna 172 made a mess in the bathroom. So they turn away small singles now. Rumors were it was the CAP but, not confirmed to me. There is self serve for reciprocating aircraft down the ramp so the Jets will not be disturbed by the riffraff. During the holidays there are about 20 jets using their facilities. Helicopter pilots still welcome but, do not park in a C172 out front like the old days.

handsrdirty wrote:Continuing a discussion from another thread about moGas in Oregon;

Airports (or any business except government) that doesn't understand or accomdate what their customers want are doomed to fail. We all vote with our dolllars, and the ones that come around and realize that E0 autofuel has a growing demand and is what many people want will get those dollars. All the concerns about one fuel tank/infrastructure are secondary because people will do what they feel is best for them.

Providing auto fuel is rarely an option at FBOs. The majors don't want to provide auto fuel if you are going to sell it specifically to fuel aircraft. Avgas is refined, filtered and transported with a higher standard of quality control than auto fuel. They take QC very seriously and don't want the liability of selling autogas to fuel airplanes. When you go to a gas station for cars and buy auto fuel, you take the liability for using it in an airplane.

I participate in fuel sales policy decisions at the local airport, and another factor we considered is that even if we could sell auto gas, a lot of users would still shop outside the airport for the cheapest fuel and haul it to the airport. I don't blame them for being good shoppers, but it's one more check mark in the negative column to try to sell autogas for airplanes.

There are 112 airports that sell Mogas in the US. I don't think its a factor of they can't sell Mogas. They chose not to. Im told by one of my local FBOs they don't think there enough market for it. Mogas has a bad reputation based on poor information (and worries of ethanol). I see on other forums things like "its junk, it will ruin your engine, Its not certified". Its not certified seems like the big one, similar to Experimental V/S Certified aircraft. Some people will not fly in an experimental airplane.

The reality is 100LL's days are numbered. Soon we will all be burning what is essentially high octane unleaded gasoline. But instead of admit that Mogas will work in most of the small aircraft out there, we will have to have some company like Swift Fuel design an overpriced replacement. You want to keep aviation alive, keep the cost down. Redbird proved that with the $1.00 fuel.

We need to keep asking the FBOs to provided Mogas at the pump. And when they see me with my 5 gallon gas cans hopeful they will see the missed opportunity and not think I am thief for not buying their 100LL.