So this is a newbie question I'm sure, I'm fairly new to off airport landings. The situation I'm running into is when coming into a rougher field, IE rocks, dips, dry streams, root clusters, etc I flair out and get down to critical speed then roll the tires. Once the tires are down, I bring the tail back up to avoid smacking it on rocks or other things, using both brakes and stick/flaps to change the tail weighting to keep proper height.

My problem I'm running into is I keep bouncing off the ground. I was landing a spot at 8500 ft so DA definitely comes into play, but my ground speed was 58 mph when I hit. I normally can brake evenly and slow quickly, but with being shot into the air (1-3 ft up) all the way down to about 10 mph, I really can't get good stable braking and my landing distance ends up longer than I'd like.

I was running 8 PSI in my Airstreak 26's, while I was on the ground I lowered it to 6 psi which seemed to help. What advice can you give me for how to keep the plane on the ground better in these rough situations? My chosen spots currently are all very long so stopping distance isn't an issue, but it won't always be that way.

I'd say make sure your flaps are all the way up as soon as you touch down. This will put more weight on your mains. Will be harder to keep your tail up, but should bounce less.

Good thought, I was a little worried dumping the tail down the ground when I clear all my flaps quickly and come in at that angle. I imagine as I get more experience I can clear the flaps and figure out how to keep the tail up at the higher speeds. I think a baby bushwheel is in my future, I smacked the tail a few days ago pretty hard and it scared me pretty good. Turned out ok but I've tried to keep the tail up after that.

For tire inflation, I hear people use 4 psi which is below the 'recommended' on my tires. I know I'm not going to sheer a valve stem, is there any reason I'd keep it to 6 vs 4 on the ABW Airstreak 26's?

Just my two cents, but a little tail wheel abuse is kind of the cost of doing business. It's also a sight better than the alternatives of porpoising off the end of the landing site, or flipping onto your back from too much braking on uneven ground with a raised tail.
As you know, raising the tail is decreasing your AOA and popping you right back into flight mode. Dumping flaps will help, but raising the tail is still bound to launch you back in the air if you're near flying speed. I much prefer to wheel land if I'm on gravel, grass or pavement, but for anything truly off-airport, including ski flying, I'll usually 3-point, or tail-low wheel land to keep that tail down. If you're not familiar with the Missionary Air Force tail-low wheel landing, that might be something to study up on. Using it, even if you elect to raise the tail slightly on roll out, at least you're not changing the AOA dramatically at touchdown. But again, a little tail wheel abuse is sort of par for the course, and cheap insurance in the bigger scheme of things. Watch some of the vids and you'll be amazed what they are subjected to back there.
Fly safe,
-DP

Very well said DP. X2 on your comments. And yes, baby bushweels are a great investment.

Bouncing is most often a result of too high a landing speed. You mentioned your ground speed was 58 mph, which seems on the high side - - air speed is what you need to be concerned with, BTW, as the airplane has no clue what ground speed is and air speed is everything. What happens is the mains touch, the tail continues down a bit and that increases AOA - - up she goes in a balloon, stalls, comes down on the mains compressing the gear and relaunches, repeat.

Short field "over the fence" wants to be more like 1.1 to 1.2 Vso. If you are unsure of loading vs. stall speed, do a stall at altitude and note IAS before landing. Move the decimal point one place to the left and add that to the IAS noted (e.g. if the stall is at 45, add 4.5 for an over the fence of 49.5 in calm conditions).

If you haven't, try the tail low 2-point. As soon as mains touch go stick forward to raise the tail to plant the mains and get forward visibility to dodge stuff. Dump flaps if you need max braking as that will put more weight on the mains, but be ready with the stick as on most high wings that'll tend to drop the tail. When the tail starts coming down, put it down and go full stick back.

bumper

Practice stalls at low power settings and catch the wing with opposite rudder at a safe altitude until you are comfortable and reflexive. Then in calm wind on a runway or smooth field fly in ground effect in a three point landing attitude and configuration as close to the ground as you can without touching down. Try to drag the tail wheel without touching the mains. Be gentle but aggressive with power. Get comfortable with that attitude and speed tracking straight under precise directional control. That is where you need to learn to fly to land. This is not done with reference to instruments. Completely by feel. Look straight ahead and let your peripheral vision and throttle work spontaneously. Once you have this mastered work on wheel landings. But that is a different training drill for different needs.

One more thing to consider is your vertical speed on landing. In my Maule, a 60 Mph final approach can be done at anything from 200 - 500 fpm vertical descent rate. Learn the power settings for your plane that will get your vertical descent rate closer to 200 fpm at your landing speed. In the Cessnas I've flown I can cut the power to idle on short final. I actually carry power to the start of the flare in my Maule.

I consider 4 lbs the upper limit for my 29" Airstreaks. I'm mostly 3 to 4 often less then 3. I've never operated them as high as 6. Who you going to listen to, the people who make the tires or me? You'll know when you go too low, the tires will fold in half when on a side slope and you have a hard time pushing the plane out of the hangar. Other then those two scenarios going lower is all good, mine are wearing great.

Don't know the Rebel much, but it sure sounds like the speed may be high, I like to come in with no excess energy so no bouncing, which you can only do by really nailing the airspeed to the min on short final of course.

The comments on the tail getting beat up as the cost of doing business off airport struck home with me, as I am just wrapping up some work back there, a combination of repairs and modifications for less future repairs. I always struggle in deciding whether a ultra low speed/shortest distance very high AOA (tail wheel hitting first often) touchdown will be best versus a higher speed/more length but tail high landing will be better. If I get real concerned (of overshooting or some other factor) at the last second, I seem to revert to the former more often then not, and the hell with the tail. Thus the work I'm doing now, I've "found" some weak points back there and have fixed them, and then some.

Great thoughts on this, it's working to dispel the idea I had about keeping the tail wheel off the ground. My plane can fly down to about 34 kts, I bring it in around 40 on approach, flare out and touch down around 36 kts. The reason I kept it a little higher was to wheel land, instead of dragging the tail in.

I tried one landing up there where I dragged the tail it, it kept clipping rocks and pushing the nose forward which seemed like it had a higher chance for smacking the mains on or doing some damage to the rear end.

That's interesting about the airstreaks running lower pressure, down to the 3-4 psi. Some of my bounce at the beginning is because the plane can slightly fly, as I get down into the 10-20 kt range it's just because the ground creates ramps that shoot me up. I imagine if I was running lower pressure the tire could absorb a lot of that impact without pushing the entire plane. Wonder if its worth taking a look at my suspension as well, I don't think it absorbs much at all.

I think that advice of dragging the tail up and down the runway on the edge of stall is what I prescribe too. Beating up a tail is kind of just another cost of doing business. We sleeved mine and added gussets. It should be beefier than stock now.

This video was in private mode until now.

Flyhound wrote:One more thing to consider is your vertical speed on landing. In my Maule, a 60 Mph final approach can be done at anything from 200 - 500 fpm vertical descent rate. Learn the power settings for your plane that will get your vertical descent rate closer to 200 fpm at your landing speed. In the Cessnas I've flown I can cut the power to idle on short final. I actually carry power to the start of the flare in my Maule.

That's a good thought, for most of these I've been coming in with almost 0 fpm decent, skimming the ground at around 5-10 ft with power, then using power to decent the last little bit. I keep the power till the mains touch then pull it off. I heard a strategy of coming in with a 100-300 fpm decent rate and flareing out helps push the plane into the ground if done right. Have you had any experience with that strategy? I do it on-airport all the time but haven't had great luck with it off-airport. Some of that is gauging the landing distance, speed/altitude for the flare on a spot landing, but I always seem to end up riding the flare out for a 100-200 ft. hard for me to put it on a dime.

I think it would be easier to put on a dime if you came in a bit steeper. That or really be dragging it in so that when you pull the power it plops down on the dime. I guess I really don't flare much, I come in usually with a bit of power, and just before touchdown I add a bit of power to catch the plane as it settles onto the ground. I guess that's a flare, but I'm not using extra space to bleed of energy, I'm adding a bit of energy to soften the landing. Good advice given on practicing this at altitude to really get a feel for the slow flight characteristics of your plane, then practicing at a grass strip or smooth field. Saves your tail wheel as well, rather then beating it up trying to practice on the rough stuff.
Hope that's as clear as mud.

Lots of good information here. You seem to have the common misconception that wheel landings must be at high speed. As Bumper said with the low tail wheel landing, we slow until we feel mushing before we level the airplane. If really slow, using quite a bit of power to slow fly, the tailwheel may touch down first. This seldom happens unless landing downwind. The key to preventing damage in rough fields is to land as slow as possible and get off into low ground effect as soon as the plane will fly in low ground effect. Practice slow flying in low ground effect all the way down long, smooth runways. Touch down a couple times, during this drill, by reducing power a bit. Low powered airplanes can't hover out of ground effect, but they can when within a couple feet of the ground. You will be amazed how slow you can fly in low ground effect with power. Much slower than normal slow flight. Even slower than stall speed. Why hold off and land at stall speed, in your situation, if it is safely possible to land below stall speed?

wyomingiswindy wrote:I think that advice of dragging the tail up and down the runway on the edge of stall is what I prescribe too. Beating up a tail is kind of just another cost of doing business. We sleeved mine and added gussets. It should be beefier than stock now.

This video was in private mode until now.

This is a good example of how it's done. We were surprised when we looked at the touchdown point. The tailwheel drug for probably 30ft before the mains hit. It didn't feel like we drug it at all. If it weren't for the mark in the grass, we would've never known. I apologize in advance for the "tall video."

contactflying wrote:...The key to preventing damage in rough fields is to land as slow as possible and get off into low ground effect as soon as the plane will fly in low ground effect...

+1
BTW, Mauleguy's recent post about a broken flap ratchet is a real good caution about dragging it in flat, as relates to terrain evaluation. Good words to live by.
-DP

BTW, Mauleguy's recent post about a broken flap ratchet is a real good caution about dragging it in flat, as relates to terrain evaluation. Good words to live by.
-DP[/quote]


Good point about dragging it in. I'll do a bit of practice with getting an extra few kt slower using power to keep it flying. There's a 1200 ft square gravel pad at the airport i'm flying out, would make a good place to test some of those and see if I really do scrape the tail first.

Once you get on the ground, as slow as possible, I would assume the tail comes back up to decrease the AOA but also let the rougher stuff ride out on the mains? I read the posts about the tail wheel taking some hits, but it seems like leaving it planted back there on roll out is just asking to rip it off. Maybe it's tougher than I'm thinking?

AOSS gear really shines in that situation!
Put a small cigarette lighter tire pump in your plane and go play around in different terrain at different pressures, bushwheels NEED to be aired down to work like they are intended, in my opinion.

TheRebeler wrote:
Once you get on the ground, as slow as possible, I would assume the tail comes back up to decrease the AOA but also let the rougher stuff ride out on the mains? I read the posts about the tail wheel taking some hits, but it seems like leaving it planted back there on roll out is just asking to rip it off. Maybe it's tougher than I'm thinking?

I think this may depend on the plane. If you really drag it in and land tail first, it may be disadvantageous to lift the tail? I'm just thinking with my citabria, the tail is quite heavy, and if I'm landing as slow and short as possible I keep the stick in my gut and get off the flaps and on the brakes. Roll out is quite short. If your plane has a lighter tail, then you could get it up again, but you have to may sure to not drop it hard when you decide to put it down. YMMV. Good posts about Greg's recent past experience. Another reason to practice steeper approaches rather then dragging it in flat.

You don't have to drag it in to land tail wheel first. Arrest the decent with power and pitch. Once into ground effect it is all done by feel. The attention needs to be outside. I do the speed reduction from pattern speed to flair to stall with decreasing focus on instruments. Peg approach speed exiting the base to final turn and then linearly slow it down to stall in ground effect. This can be done with widely varied glide slopes based on power and slips. Wind, gusts and ground effect make this an art. Unless I have a strong cross wind necessitating a wheel landing I always land tail wheel first with the stick at the rear stop.