Backcountry Pilot • Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

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Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

So this discussion comes about from a recent night VFR CFIT accident. The facts are not all in yet, but it appears a close temperature dew point spread of 2 degrees C combined with already low ceilings may have been a major factor.

It makes sense that night flying is more hazardous than daylight flight. I don't remember the source (maybe AOPA), but forced landings in daylight have a 90+% survival rate, while at night it goes the other way and the survival rate drops to like 10%. Does anyone know where this comes from or if it is even close?
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

My limits for night flights are at least 5 miles and clear skies, I want some moon light.
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

Why don't I start a new thread called "Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences" where we can share bad experiences and analysis of other accidents there.


One of the big problems I see with that is that a lot of those folks aren't able to do any writing anymore-or reading either. They are in the cold, COLD ground......
Night flying "VFR" in marginal weather (especially scud running with varying terrain) is a 'death wish'. Admittedly not the intent, but for all practical purposes. YOU are stacking the deck against yourself. In this case apparently add icing conditions......

WHY can't we learn from other peoples errors/mistakes..........
And I don't believe 'mistakes' can get much bigger..........
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Intentional double post due to the 'split topic'.
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

My place is surounded by mountains. I have about 1400 hrs total. The other day I was asked how many hrs night. I had to look it up. 11.0 hrs total night for me. I do not consider full moon flying to be night operations and have not logged so.

Two and a half years ago I had to put down on I-80. Glad it was daylight. Much easyier for the cars to dodge me.

Tim
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

I built my plane with no lights thus eliminating the danger in night flying. That problem solved!
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

No lights or night flying for me either, saved the weight and the money! I get into enough trouble during the daytime. I'm not in that big of a hurry either.
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

I love flying at night especially in the winter with a full moon. Having said that I want to clarify I am in familiar terrain and within sight of the road. Traveling in unfamiliar terrain on a dark night would be an entirely different story.
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

Just by nature of where I worked... North of the Arctic Circle, I flew a lot of night hours. I had many winter months where I'd come close to 200 hours, with at least 100 of that night logged. Each month.

Number one, you can never have enough flashlights stuffed in your pockets. Sooner or later you'll need them. LED lights are your friend.

Number two, in a lot of ways night hours are a lot easier flying. Air is generally smoother. Center has nothing going on, so getting a clearance or dealing with them in general is a piece of cake. Whiteout conditions don't exist at night. You don't get all the weird visual cues from the ground that in daylight hours have you trying to corkscrew the airplane into the tundra. And when dealing with crosswinds, I found night landings a lot easier because of the lack of visual cues also. All you have is a set of runway lights hanging out there in space, with nothing else to see, and setting the crab angle to stay centered became real simple.

On the plus side was flying in cold, clear air with Northern Lights illuminating the world each and every night. Getting paid to sit there and marvel at the sights never ceased to amaze me. It took my breath away more than once.

And, you have to develop a fatalistic attitude. If you lose and engine or engines, establish best glide speed for your weight and start down. About 50 FT AGL turn on the landing light. If you don't like what you see, turn the light off. Always worked for me.

Gump
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

Someone posted a link earlier to a world map with all the active flights during a 24 hr period. It was amazing to watch the flight activity follow the daylight, and then all but cease at night. My point is that if the volume of day flights vs. night flights is that skewed then so will be the survival probability. Not saying night flying is safer than it is, just another thing to think about.

As far as VFR into IMC at night, no, as a general rule, you can't see the clouds until you are in them. OTH, clouds and fog are just as predictable at night as they are in the day. Knowing you can't see them at night should probably be reason enough not to put yourself in their paths. Fact is, in areas of no ground light, no moon, and a solid but taller cloud layer, it is entirely possible to be VFR/IMC at night. Another night issue (mostly involved with low level flight) are mountains. Without a well lit night, or ground lighting you can not see them either VFR / IFR ...no matter.

I also think there is a bit of 'currency' factor that goes with night. I know that after working long stretches of day work, and then getting back into the night work, I usually take several nights to really get up to speed.

One more thought, many, many folks here and elsewhere, fly into places like the canyons of Idaho without a thought (broad daylight of course). The most benign sunday flight from McCall to JC is going to end very poorly in the event of an untimely engine failure, but just a little more technical route, and your outcome is probably going to be far more severe than a guy flying over some mellow pasture at night...

Treated with respect and flown appropriately night flying shouldn't be anything to be afraid of. Like Gump, I tend to think night flying is easier on the pilot.

Take care, Rob
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

My BFR is due this month. I will have it tailored towards instrument work.
I don't have the nav radios so it will have to be with foggles. Does anyone know how to do this and not be able to cheat?
When I was a student I remember looking out the corner to see the ground.
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

Duh.... Do your BFR on a dark night. Then you can't "cheat."

Foggles, or any vision limiting devices, suck pond water. Go out when it's overcast, moonless, and away from city lights and crank up the interior lighting all the way. Then you're forced to be on the gauges "for real." Whole different world.

I know that I'm so used to scud running with just a sliver of terrain out the pilot side window, that that's all I need to stay upright most days. That's both good and bad.

Gump
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

To many lights Gump. And I know I would cheat.
I did 1 hour actual IFR, no cheating that time. Might have to rent the right plane.
Would like to use mine though and not be able to see the ground.
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

GumpAir wrote:
I know that I'm so used to scud running with just a sliver of terrain out the pilot side window, that that's all I need to stay upright most days. That's both good and bad.

Gump


That's what scares me, I enjoy doing that, and I'm not afraid.
I watch the back door, won't go so far that I can't turn around.
Sooner or later it's bound to happen though

I'm talking about daylight here. I never push it at night...I am very afraid of that.
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

GumpAir wrote:On the plus side was flying in cold, clear air with Northern Lights illuminating the world each and every night. Getting paid to sit there and marvel at the sights never ceased to amaze me. It took my breath away more than once.

Gump


Amen Brother!!!

Course i'm not "getting paid" to fly since i'm just a PP, but i learned after years in special ops that you have to choose your risks. For me, this is one thats worth it. On those rare clear days (and nights) up here it makes all the hassels worthwhile.

Chris
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

Foggles----A peek is worth a thousand scans :D
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

Terry wrote:
GumpAir wrote:
I know that I'm so used to scud running with just a sliver of terrain out the pilot side window, that that's all I need to stay upright most days. That's both good and bad.

Gump


That's what scares me, I enjoy doing that, and I'm not afraid.
I watch the back door, won't go so far that I can't turn around.
Sooner or later it's bound to happen though


Here in the Willamette valley, there's not much to hit higher than 700 ft if you don't count towers. However, there's a 207 painted across the hill just opposite the runway at Grants Pass. He was scud running, misjudged.

My other fav is the video of that guy in the Bonanza flying up canyon watching his GPS terrain screen. All of a sudden you see bushes out the right corner of the windscreen and he drags the wingtip through them at 100+ mph.

Shivers.
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

That reminds me of the that classic Far Side cartoon: The airline captain saying to his co-pilot " What's a mountain goat doing way up here in the clouds"?
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

Just realized I posted in night flying instead of, no wonder non inst. pilots die. #-o
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

This one happend after the pilot on an IFR flight plan picked up a visual approach:

NTSB Identification: SEA07FA051
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, February 06, 2007 in Belgrade, MT
Probable Cause Approval Date: 1/31/2008
Aircraft: Beech 200, registration: N45MF
Injuries: 3 Fatal.
The cross-country flight was on an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan, approximately 42 nautical miles from the tower-controlled destination airport, when the pilot was cleared for the visual approach. Dark night visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and there was an overcast layer of clouds at 11,000 feet. After the en route radar service was terminated, the pilot contacted the local control tower and made a garbled and partially unintelligible transmission. Shortly after the time of the transmission, local law enforcement personnel received reports of a downed aircraft. The wreckage was located later that evening approximately 80 feet below the peak of a ridge that rose to an elevation of approximately 5,700 feet. From the initial point of contact with terrain, the debris path was scattered over the crest of the ridge and continued down the opposing side, in a south-southeast direction, toward the airport. The ridge was the highest obstruction between the accident location and the destination airport. The airport is located in a large valley and is surrounded by rising mountainous terrain. At night, clouds and terrain are difficult for pilots to see, and a gradual loss of visual cues can occur as flight is continued toward darker terrain. Additionally, the horizon is less visible and less distinct at night than during the day. Because the pilot was descending the airplane over rural, mountainous terrain that provided few visual ground reference cues, and because the overcast cloud layer would have prevented moonlight from illuminating the terrain, it is likely that the pilot did not see the rising terrain as the airplane continued toward it. The airplane was equipped with an Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System; however, impact damage to the unit precluded post accident testing. It is not known how the unit was configured during the flight or what type of alerts the pilot received prior to impact. Post accident examination of the wreckage, to include both engines, did not disclose evidence of a mechanical malfunction prior to impact. Additionally, no evidence was found to suggest an in-flight structural failure.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

The pilot's failure to maintain an adequate altitude and descent rate during a night visual approach. Dark night conditions and mountainous terrain are factors in the accident.


The full narative can be found here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20070214X00187&ntsbno=SEA07FA051&akey=1

Lots of experience here as the PIC had over 17,000 hours... Why do these keep playing over and over again like a stuck record?
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Re: Night Flying Accidents/Bad Experiences

I, like gump, indeed enjoy nite flying, have over 100 hrs, lots of it cross-country. the upsides are very quiet, bird likes the stable cool air, and less traffic for sure. have had to draw the lines on going over the frank at nite, or in bad wx, and always have a really good a/p in working order. having a good right seatger, preferably a pilot, can really help also. the downside it just what u think...i like lots of altitude at nite, good oxygen, lots of nrst options as well, oh yeah, and hot coffee for sure...good idea at least is go out every 90 days or so and do some pattern work in the dark...minimum...if it scares the hell out of u, take a co-pilot w/you for sure. you might learn to really like it...!
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