Hi All,

So, after doing just about everything I feel I can safely do in the 152, I've put on my big-boy britches and bought a Champ. It has a c-90 & 8.5 tires.

I dead set on learning how to operate the thing off-airport, and to be frank, even with all the reading and video watching and pretending to fly the 152 like it was a tailwheel, I confess that I'm not really sure where to start. I have a few ideas that I've gleaned over time, though...

1. Learn how to "drag" the tires. Basically a low pass, with very light contact of the tires. Feeling out the surface, so to speak. Something to practice on a gravel strip, get good at it, before trying in an off-airport situation.
2. Living on the coast, I have access to hundreds of miles of sandy beach. I imagine that's the best place to start...no length issues to deal with, simply need to inspect for logs/big-rocks/dead-walrus before "dragging."

So...after I'm comfortable with the "drag," do I simply go out to a beach and give it a try? If the drag feels ok, no weird surprises, just give landing a try and be ready on the throttle? It seems almost to simple, am I missing something significant here?

I'm honestly really excited about working my way into the off-airport world (been dreaming about it for a while now), but I do want to proceed with due caution & care. Any input is tremendously appreciated

Best
Dave

First task is getting comfortable in the plane. Do a good bit of basic air work...stalls, power on, power off, slow flight--ACTUAL slow flight, such that ANY deceleration will cause a stall. You're building your "Feel" for the aircraft, so that you know it's "hints", and it's "shouts" by feel. Try flying it (at altitude) with end airspeed covered, including stalls.

Next step is learn to touch down PRECISELY where you intend to, EVERY TIME. Not going to hit your spot? Go around, come back and try it again, this time precisely where you want it, AND at minimum controllable airspeed (MCA). You need to learn to touch at your spot, at MCA. Every time.

All that can be done at altitude and at an airport. This removes the distractions of off airport sites while you develop your skills.

Once you've developed the skill and consistency to hit your spot, at MCA every time, then and only then should you start working off airport.

The reason is, even big ocean beaches can contain lots of surprises, like soft spots, etc. with good discipline and some basic skills, you can learn to work off airport sites without the distraction and risk of landing somewhere other than where you just dragged the wheels.

Also, if you're touching down with excess speed, a soft spot or unseen obstacle can do a lot more harm than if you were at MCA at the touch.

Get to know some of the local aviators, and listen to them, pick their brains on how they operate, where they go. See if you can join up with them for some "easy" drills. There are some very experienced off road types in Nome.

Take it slow, build some skills first, and enjoy the trip. It won't take as long as it sounds.

Fly safe, and keep working with those kids!

MTV

What MTV said and also do lots of in ground effect slow flight (hover taxi) at the airport. All without airspeed indicator that won't be working that slow anyway. Your airplane will fly very slow nicely out of ground effect. It will go even slower enough to not damage things in low ground effect. Get to where you can maintain six inches AGL all the way down the runway to the last turn off.

What MTV said, to the letter. And what contactflying said.

Then hit the beach and use rocks, driftwood, seaweed, etc as touch down points- adjacent to your track of course. "Feel" the surface at various speeds. Some areas will "grab" the tires on touchdown more then others so be prepared to compensate with aft stick pressure or power or both.

Before every touchdown have your mind in go-around mode so the split second something doesn't feel right you are back flying. Do this everytime you touchdown, even on benign strips around home. You want mind and muscle memory to be as sharp as possible because off-airport frequently throws something unexpected your way.

Working a twenty mile section of sandbars down in Texas is how I sharpened my off airport skills initially. Bar hoping from one to the other. Do the same thing along the beach; precision touchdown, wheel along for a while, lift off to clear an obstacle, precision touchdown again, rudder around another obstacle, lift off again, etc will help you learn the precise point your airplane flys and doesn't fly, how she feels on side slopes. Watch the wingtips on side slopes. And watch out around eagles, they don't have the same fear of airplanes as most other birds do. And keep an eye out for buoy ropes that lay across the beach out into the ocean, don't know if you have them around Nome but we have hundreds on the Kenai Peninsula.

Have fun!

Put on bigger tires if you want to play in the sand. Someone else on this forum found out the hard way that 8.50's are not enough tire for that.

There are beaches and then there are beaches, and 8.50s can work fine on lots of beaches, just have to be more judicious with the site evaluation.

If you have or can borrow an ATV, you can run some of that beach and get a better feel for it.

Then again big tires are a luxury right up till you need them.

MTV

A good skill to develop for off-airport ops is adherence to the old adage "discretion is the better part of valor." I know for me personally, I feel a rush to get on the ground. I just want to land it, and I often feel rushed to expedite the survey/observation part. But if it doesn't look good, be willing to move to the next site. There's probably no wounded child or pot of gold on that sandy river bar that's worth risking health and/or savings account.

I also really like the idea of practicing somewhere innocuous, like a big grass strip. There was a guy here a few years back who was practicing the approach style outlined in Patrick Romano's STOL Tips, and he was using a real runway threshold that dropped off several feet. He ripped the gear leg off when he came up short. Make those mistakes somewhere with no consequences.

I had a weird issue when surveying the surface where I had to find just the right altitude and angle of viewing so that it didn't screw up my eyes. The relative motion of the surface whizzing by blurs it, whereas if you look too far forward you can't see much detail.

It's also such a pleasure to operate lightly loaded doing this stuff. The airplane will maintain altitude at lower RPM and everything feels slowed down and manageable; not usually the case when you're loaded heavy.

Welcome to the Champ family!

Agreed, 8.5s in the hangar look big but, then start looking too small on many beaches. Experience is paramount on smaller tires. Good advice in the previous posts on all points.

Another aspect that needs consideration is your contingency planning. If there is an issue with me or the aircraft how do we handled it on a f<edit>ing remote beach in Northwest Alaska? My life and aircraft are pretty important and I make sure there are people I can call if s<edit> hits the fan. There is a significant chance you may need to recover yourself and the aircraft quickly do to the exposure of beach flying.

I would try to find a good instructor who knowns YOUR area with good history on the subjects (not necessarily a CFI). Keep it safe and fun.

The tides for Nome today:

Good conversation.

Be careful with MCA approaches. To me, MCA is this:

"The Airplane Flying Handbook states that flight at minimum controllable airspeed means a speed at which any further increase in angle of attack or load factor, or reduction in power will cause an immediate stall."

I personally do not operate into landing areas that require this. If that is needed, it's too short, and I'm not participating in a short landing spectacle. So many times, there is a tree line, creek, gulley, sand bar, or even a cliff that will ruin your day if you get the wrong bump, wind shift, thermal, passenger grabs a stick, whatever. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a tail low wheel landing with a bit of energy left over. Then use the brakes, that's why they're on there.

Anyway, that's how I do it. My advice would be to find a pro, (like Eric Sieh if he's still around) one who operates wheels into areas you would not, and does it successfully with a load in the airplane. Even if it costs you a couple of hours, it will be worth it.

Eric is still in Kotz. Arctic Backcountry Flying Service. He's on Facebook by name and his outfit.

While you learn, fly with others for a while, and be the SECOND one into a new spot. Then earn your way with practice into being the leader.

Gump

dpadvo wrote:So...after I'm comfortable with the "drag," do I simply go out to a beach and give it a try? If the drag feels ok, no weird surprises, just give landing a try and be ready on the throttle? It seems almost to simple, am I missing something significant here?

Experience has taught me that "being ready on the throttle" is a real last gasp. It'll only save your hide some of the time.

You want to be certain about your surface before you land, otherwise you're travelling a dangerous path. There is no margin with 8.50s. If you are landing on dodgy beaches, one day you'll strike a soft patch, and go over on the nose. Be certain about the landing place.

As always (at risk of broken-record-itis), I can't begin to say how much I appreciate the input. I've got a few ideas from all this:

1. I need to buy (and burn up) a lot more avgas on the local gravel runway, working on decision making (go-arounds) and surface evaluation. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to switch it up and try various local gravel runways, see if I can begin to differentiate between the (slightly) different surfaces.
2. After #1 is done, I would do well to take the time/effort/$ to be the second plane to land on the first off-airport areas for a while. Learn from experience/wisdom, and work my way towards going it solo. Sounds a little bit like some FAR's about a student pilot's first solo . Goal: consistent as-slow-as-possible (MCA) landings, on my mark, every time.
3. Repeat step #1 about 50 more times.
4. LOTS of slow flight. My mentor instructor has this saying, "there's no limitation on slow flight. You can't run out of slow flight."
5. Have fun. Also, try to get ahold of Eric in Kotz for some dual/flights-of-two.
6. Contingency planning. I recently bought a delorme inreach, but it seems like it might not be a bad idea to brief my oh s*** situation with some contacts in town.
7. Begin operation convince-the-wife-that-bigger-tires-are-needed now, with hopeful completion by next summer.
8. It hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet, but helmets are already ordered, hopefully here by next week.
9. Enjoy the journey

Thanks for the welcome, 8GCBC. I'm very quickly falling head over heels for the little airplane .

Also, I am entirely enamored with "landing twice." It's super goofy, and as a JH Science teacher (by day), super goofy is the name of my game.

Thanks all. Really.
Best,
Dave

Get very familiar with how incredibly slow you can get in low ground effect. You will have to work the throttle a bit to stay at six inches. It is the slowest slow flight possible. The air you are blasting over the wing and low ground effect make a huge difference. It gives you the most time to look at the landing zone and the most time to make decisions. A slight reduction in power will put you down softly at the slowest ground speed possible. Power and pitch allow slower flight than pitch alone and much more pilot control.

Whether apparent brisk walk rate of closure approach or hover taxi approach, having to pull power after the soft and slow touchdown is a good indicator that you have used power and pitch to land as slow and soft as possible.

gbflyer wrote:Good conversation.

Be careful with MCA approaches. To me, MCA is this:

"The Airplane Flying Handbook states that flight at minimum controllable airspeed means a speed at which any further increase in angle of attack or load factor, or reduction in power will cause an immediate stall."

I personally do not operate into landing areas that require this. If that is needed, it's too short, and I'm not participating in a short landing spectacle. So many times, there is a tree line, creek, gulley, sand bar, or even a cliff that will ruin your day if you get the wrong bump, wind shift, thermal, passenger grabs a stick, whatever. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a tail low wheel landing with a bit of energy left over. Then use the brakes, that's why they're on there.

Anyway, that's how I do it. My advice would be to find a pro, (like Eric Sieh if he's still around) one who operates wheels into areas you would not, and does it successfully with a load in the airplane. Even if it costs you a couple of hours, it will be worth it.

GB makes a good point. I wasn't clear enough on WHERE to have the airplane at MCA....and I should have said that you need to arrive at the TOUCH at MCA.

I certainly didn't intend to imply that you should fly at MCA out there on a half mile final, or even over a tree line during an approach.

But, the point is, the approach should CONCLUDE at or very near MCA. And, of course, wind effects, particularly gusty winds, would suggest you add a bit of speed, even close to the touch.

I've found that one of the most difficult things to teach in an airplane, particularly with a very low time student, is the concept of a fluid, gradual deceleration on short final. Too often, pilots look at the FAA recommendation of 1.3 Vso, and assume that means they should fly 1.3 right down into the flare. Done on a large, long runway, that results in considerable float during the flare, as you expend the excess energy.

In an off airport situation, that practice may cause you to land somewhere you really don't want to be, and/or encountering an unseen lump, hump or rock at excess speed.

But, again, MCA is for just prior to the touch, NOT out there on half mile final.
MTV

Great points from everyone, few other things I think about going off runway.

If I do screw up and get my prop or rip off a gear leg how am I getting myself and plane home?

Don't push it hard the night before a big storm/bad weather. You will most likely be fine even going over on your back, but now you may have to sit it out for a few days, family and friends will be worried and fellow pilots may decide to do something stupid to get you out. Can you text your mechanic? Do you have number of local helicopter guy to swing plane? Do you know of spare prop somewhere? Just things to think about.

Picking a spot crash is as important as the spot to land.

As you overfly a landing spot also look at both sides and what the end of runway/landing area looks like. Example is narrow 1000 ft strip with planes parked on right side. If things go bad be prepared to go left. Even poor control is better then no control and can get you away from the other planes/severe hazards. Always pick a spot near the end to ground loop. Hopefully you are slow enough and just look bad, in any case better to hit the tree, brush or rock with the tail then the prop.

DENNY

29 in Bushwheels are some of the best safety gear you could ever buy for the plane. However, you only have about 8 weeks left before the snow. Are you going on skis this winter?? That is some of the best flying I have ever done.
DENNY

mtv wrote: There are beaches and then there are beaches, and 8.50s can work fine on lots of beaches, just have to be more judicious with the site evaluation. ....

What he said.
And, there are big tires and then there are big tires.
I think 850's are a lot "bigger" on a 1300# Champ than on a 2550# C180,
as far as flotation goes.

My view on landings of all types is that the 2 keys to consistency are proper airspeed and trim. If your trip down final is on speed, i.e., the same speed, and you trim for that speed, then you will consistently land in the same way. But if you're sawing around with airspeed and pitch, you can still get it down, but the airplane will make the decisions for you, and that's not what you want.

There is a tendency with light trainer-level airplanes for pilots to think trim is extraneous, because the stick forces are so light. But as I was told when I was first learning to fly, if you don't trim, you're not a pilot, you're just an interested passenger. Trim is essential.

The major landing mistake that many pilots make is flying final too fast. Proper airspeed for final begins at 1.3 Vso for most airplanes, only slightly faster if conditions are gusty. Ideally, that airspeed is bled off near the end of final and into the flare so that the airplane touches down just above stall speed. Obviously, since we fly in a variable medium, there will be times when some adjustments need to be made, such as when there's an extreme crosswind, or the wind direction varies back and forth as the windspeed changes. But for the most part, keeping the speed down to 1.3 Vso for most of the final leg works best.

Whether you're carrying power throughout the final approach leg and flying a flatter approach, or you're flying down final at idle in a steeper approach, doesn't matter nearly as much as being consistent about what you're doing. Since I was taught eons ago to land without power, that's what I usually do, but either way is acceptable.

With consistent airspeed and trim, then you can work on putting the airplane down where you want it to touch. There's a new ASI video that offers a couple of hints (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbc_MGq ... e=youtu.be) but mostly it's practice, so that you can visualize where the airplane will land based on your own aiming point. Whether you're practicing for a beach landing or a short gravel strip or putting it down where you want to on a 10,000' runway, practice is the answer.

My somewhat limited experience with Champs is in the Super Decathlon, Decathlon, and Citabria variants of them, and that's many years ago, but all were loads of fun. I think you'll enjoy your "new" airplane a bunch.

Cary

Great topic. My plane is similar, just has 60 more horses involved and a squared off rudder.

I've been into many of the state owned grass strips with an instructor (back when I was getting my tail wheel endorsement). The state owned grass strips aren't "off airport" but if you're used to 3200' of black top, regular traffic patterns and clear approaches then I can assure you'll put a lengthwise crease in your seat cushion getting in/out of most of them.

It was pounded into my head 20 years ago to make every landing a spot landing. If I'm not on the ground by the time I roll over the numbers I consider myself to have gone long. Spot landing is one of the few flying skills that will save your life if your engine packs up. Burn gas at your home airport in your plane until you can make the first turn off without any chirping or tire smoke (see skill sets outlined by people above).

Learn to calculate your takeoff distance. Your POH will be even worse than mine, but it has some numbers. Look them up. Verify that your plane will match the book. Manufacturers of old planes were known to like a rug about cruise performance but the landing and takeoff distances should be achievable by a pilot with average skills even in an old plane. A C152 will get off the ground in half of what the book says if you fly it correctly.

Hitting local grass strips you didn't even know existed is another way to increase your skill level. If there's rumor of a local fly in, I go try it out. I don't want to make myself unwelcome at an otherwise private runway, so unless I know someone there (almost never) I wait for a red carpet day. It's great practice because many of them are hard to find and have interesting approaches/obstacles.

At some airports it is common for people to use one of the grass bays adjacent to a long runway. Get comfortable getting in and out of that single patch marked at each end by an intersecting taxi way. Practice "dragging" the grass, which will require your wheel landing and soft field skills.

aftCG wrote:Great topic. My plane is similar, just has 60 more horses involved and a squared off rudder.

My 7ECA has the O-200, so only 35 more horses, and a LOT more weight than the Champ.

aftCG wrote:It was pounded into my head 20 years ago to make every landing a spot landing. If I'm not on the ground by the time I roll over the numbers I consider myself to have gone long. Spot landing is one of the few flying skills that will save your life if your engine packs up. Burn gas at your home airport in your plane until you can make the first turn off without any chirping or tire smoke (see skill sets outlined by people above).

Unless your runway is super-short, it might be better to make your "target" the first stripe AFTER the numbers while you're learning to hit the mark every time. It can be embarrassing (or worse) to come up short...

aftCG wrote:Learn to calculate your takeoff distance. Your POH will be even worse than mine, but it has some numbers. Look them up. Verify that your plane will match the book. Manufacturers of old planes were known to like a rug about cruise performance but the landing and takeoff distances should be achievable by a pilot with average skills even in an old plane. A C152 will get off the ground in half of what the book says if you fly it correctly.

Don't know about his Champ, but there is absolutely no POH (or any other pilot's manual) for my 1965 Champion 7ECA, and the later Bellanca version is useless, since it gives performance only for the O-235 powered 7ECA. I can't get anywhere near those numbers... So I've been building up a little table of cruise performance data for my own use, and trying to extrapolate the takeoff / landing data based on reduced horsepower, but it's probably nothing that would pass a "legal" review... So I'm pretty conservative at this point.