Hi all!

Context: I'm working through my commercial (checkride in a week. wish me luck! or better, wish me no occasion to need luck...), doing everything in a retractable gear 182. After my first few lessons, all I could think was: holy moly, I love every bit of this. I love the professional pilot mentality & rituals & tolerances, I love driving a more complicated & more useful plane. This shit's in my bones.

And then, all of a sudden, poof, I have a crystal clear daydream: Dave's Flying Services, based in Nome. Operating a 180, driving hunters & sightseers wherever they want to go.

Of course, as I'm sure you all understand, this drool-laden daydream requires me to make an intellectual and well informed inquiry into the nature of all things 180: the different models & vintages, pros/cons, modifications, operating costs, et cetera.

So, my questions:
1. Is it silly to not consider a 185? I'm thinking about startup/operating cost, it seems that a 180 can do most of what a 185 can, for a lot less cash.
2. I have heard & read: go for an early 180, they can be had for a relative song, are lightweight, great performers. What IS an "early model" 180? We talking 52 to mid 60's? Only 50's?
3. Right off the bat items that seem wise: big tires, lightweight battery on firewall, wing extensions, extended baggage.
4. Tough question: when all's said and done with my commercial, I'll probably have 15 hours in a 182. Just enough to be a stitch comfortable with commercial checkride maneuvers. From my experience with my 152, it'll take a hundred or more hours, in a 180, before I'm comfortable doing any sort of "serious" work in it. How do I get from where I am now, to there? Any suggestions? I'll take any input...business planning, financial, strategic big picture...you name it.
5. To help get the ball rolling, I figure I'll get started working on a 135 to operate the 152 under. I know there's not much I could do, just sightseeing, basically. But it's something. Any suggestions for that?

Phew! Tongue-in-cheekiness aside, this is basically daydream fun. I would love to see it happen, but for now it's a dream that's fun to ruminate on .

Merry Christmas all!
Dave

PS
If anyone is just absolutely sick of their 180 and wants to donate it to a bright-eyed & bushy-tailed hopeful-commercial-pilot, I know a guy. Also same goes for toilsome burdens of extra avgas you just really want to get rid of.

I'd suggest that before you leap off the cliff into running your own 135 operation, you should go to work for one. For one thing, you don't have enough hours yet, I'm guessing, to be a 135 pilot--here are the basic requirements for a VFR Part 135 charter pilot in command flying passengers:
Has had at least 500 hours time as a pilot, including at least 100 hours of cross-country flight time, at least 25 hours of which were at night; and
For an airplane, holds an instrument rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category rating. (there's an exception to the IR requirement for remote area ops as approved by the local FSDO)

But that doesn't mean that you can't work for an existing 135 operation in some fashion, to learn how it works, how to jump through the many, many hoops required of a 135 operation, etc.

Meanwhile, you might want to review all of Part 135 as well as Part 119.

When I was doing single engine charter as one of several pilots for two successive 135 operations out of Laramie, it was one of the more enjoyable "outside the office" pursuits I could have had at the time. It gave me the opportunity to get out of the office and fly on someone else's dime, and I enjoyed the people I flew, I enjoyed seeing country I might not otherwise have seen, and in a word, it was fun. But just from my observation standpoint, it wasn't easy for either of those outfits to keep their heads above water. Both ultimately went under.

So it's a tough business. Granted that there are success stories out there, but it takes good business sense and a whole lot of good luck.

Cary

Sounds like an early 2017 case of cabin fever.

My involvement with people who have, or do, run an on-going flying business indicates that it is Business Sense First and flying ability second.

Hopeium is an expensive addiction!

Had troubles enough just keeping a couple of small flying "clubs" afloat.

Chris C

PS: Afterthought - One of my favorite songs is the Pied Pipers singing DREAM

Are there any commercial operators based there now? Are they financially successful? If so, see if you can buy an airplane and lease it to them, then hire on and fly it for them. Owner/operator.

If there isn't a well run operation there now, find a good one and offer to set up a satellite base in Nome under their operating certificate.

I was told by everyone I know that there's no money in trucking. Maybe so, but it supports my flying habit OK! Only ask people who have been successful entrepreneurs for advise.

I'm sure your dream is viable, but if you haven't been in business before, you need a mentor. That's why my suggestion is what it is.

dpadvo wrote:Hi all!

1. Is it silly to not consider a 185? I'm thinking about startup/operating cost, it seems that a 180 can do most of what a 185 can, for a lot less cash.

I have never operated a 180 or a 185 commercially, have no Idea how the long run costs would differ exactly. One big thing that pops up in my mind as a commercial operator is the legal gross weight. The highest gross on a later 180 with the kenmore up-gross is 3190, 185s go quite a bit higher than that.

2. I have heard & read: go for an early 180, they can be had for a relative song, are lightweight, great performers. What IS an "early model" 180? We talking 52 to mid 60's? Only 50's?

Early 180s are in my experience very different animals from later 180s, I love the early ones personally. IMHO the true "early models" were from 53 to 59. A lot of guys myself included Really like the 1960 to 1963 models, I have heard they can be really light but have some of the amenities of the newer airplanes, newer panel layout, new style cowl, door latches, hinges, etc but not yet with the third window. 1964 and on is really what most everybody I know considers to be the "heavier" ones.

3. Right off the bat items that seem wise: big tires, lightweight battery on firewall, wing extensions, extended baggage.

Mods are great, but there is no substitute for knowing the airplane. $5000 of avgas will teach you more than $5000 of wing mods IMHO.

4. Tough question: when all's said and done with my commercial, I'll probably have 15 hours in a 182. Just enough to be a stitch comfortable with commercial checkride maneuvers. From my experience with my 152, it'll take a hundred or more hours, in a 180, before I'm comfortable doing any sort of "serious" work in it. How do I get from where I am now, to there? Any suggestions? I'll take any input...business planning, financial, strategic big picture...you name it.

When I first started flying the 180, I had 300 ish hours in a cub, all low level off airport kind of stuff. The 180 humbled me big time. Ive been flying it for a year and a half or so, and a couple hundred hours and many hundreds more landings, and I am just now feeling proficient in the airplane. Every time I fly it I learn something. No way I would feel comfortale doing any sort of "serious" work in it.

My suggestions on getting to that point is working for someone else,I don't know any way to learn like you can learn from someone that is "there". Im sure that someone smarter than me will come along and have more advice.

Just my .002 cents.

I have some additional thoughts. Selecting a piece of equipment and then seeking out an opportunity isn't the best recipe. Identifying an opportunity and then selecting the best equipment for the job is a better approach.

You like the Skywagon line, but they're not as popular with the commercial operators as they used to be. Many more 206s these days. Less risk of accidents, lower insurance, more cabin space for bulky passengers with bulky winter cloths and baggage.

I knew little about aviation, having grown up around trucks and heavy equipment. I drove for many other companies until I thought I knew more than they did about the business. (I was wrong, but that's the beauty of youth, no fear of what you don't know!). Upside is that flying is now a fun hobby where I'm free to do as I please instead of being a job. My business owns me. Flying does not.

Look for an opportunity if you want to be an entrepreneur. Then build a business to meet the need. Use the financial reward to fund your flying habit. If you find an opportunity in aviation, go for it, but don't force a product where all the fundamentals of a good business plan haven't been satisfied first.

I don't have much time flying but I've been an entrepreneur all my life. I suggest you read and re-read everything Pinecone has written.

Unless you have a bunch of money to throw away, definitely work for someone else first. Definitely choose your machine based on the opportunity.

Richard Branson joked that the only way to become a millionaire in aviation was to start as a billionaire.

True words.

All that said, like Pinecone, I was dumb enough to ignore lots of good advice and stubborn enough to emerge successful. On my third try.

Good luck!

Pinecone wrote:I have some additional thoughts. Selecting a piece of equipment and then seeking out an opportunity isn't the best recipe. Identifying an opportunity and then selecting the best equipment for the job is a better approach.

You like the Skywagon line, but they're not as popular with the commercial operators as they used to be. Many more 206s these days. Less risk of accidents, lower insurance, more cabin space for bulky passengers with bulky winter cloths and baggage.

I knew little about aviation, having grown up around trucks and heavy equipment. I drove for many other companies until I thought I knew more than they did about the business. (I was wrong, but that's the beauty of youth, no fear of what you don't know!). Upside is that flying is now a fun hobby where I'm free to do as I please instead of being a job. My business owns me. Flying does not.

Look for an opportunity if you want to be an entrepreneur. Then build a business to meet the need. Use the financial reward to fund your flying habit. If you find an opportunity in aviation, go for it, but don't force a product where all the fundamentals of a good business plan haven't been satisfied first.

Pinecone nails it!

In the fall of 2000 I showed up in Alaska as a young Air Force officer on my first "real" assignment and a desire to experience as much of Alaska as I could on the side. Translate that to mean "do as much flying in the backcountry" as possible. I had my sights sets on a 180 on floats... never mind the fact that I had never flown a 180 and had never flown on floats. I passed my SES checkride within two weeks of arriving, before I even moved into my south Anchorage apartment. I also started looking around for a 180.

Then I got some really great advice that I was smart to listen to, particularly since I knew nothing about flying in Alaska, flying off-airport, or flying floats. That advice was start small and work into the 180. So a few months later I bought not a 180 but a Super Cub. And I ran it on wheels. And I had a mentor that helped guide me during that first year... not some guy on the internet (although that's good too) but a real no-kidding let's-go-fly-together mentor.

After three years and 500 hours, I turned into a decent backcountry Super Cub pilot, if you define "decent" as able to get into some off airport locations under good conditions without posing an undue hazard to myself or my airplane. After another 500 hours in that Super Cub (1000 total over 9 years) I sold it and bought, you guessed it, a 180. Now I'm 600 hours and 6 years into owning that one and I'm still learning. But those 9 years gave me invaluable experience in risk management and airplane ownership that have kept me out of trouble since.

So that's a lot of words to say what others have already said... start small, take your time, and work up to that 180 or 185. You might progress much faster than I have if it's your primary job, but that experience that you gain by flying on someone's else dime plus the experience you gain by flying something simpler/cheaper on your own dime will pay itself back in spades down the road!

EDIT DPADVO
Please read with some of humor.

Your posting title:

PEERING Down The c180/185 Rabbit Hole…

Per Wiki definition, your title may contain a bit of Freudian ‘Slippage’
indicating that at some level you really do know the answer.

Wiki:
"Down the rabbit hole", a metaphor for an entry into
the unknown,
the disorienting,
or the mentally deranging.”

You are definitely NOT the first

Chris C

dpadvo is the original poster. Not me, Pinecone.

Pinecone - my error - did not go all the way up.
Has been EDITED - Corrected.

It is not like a lot of us have not PEERED down that dark hole.
Some have crawled in - Some have even jumped in.

Yup! Seen a lot of rabbit holes in my time! Many from the inside!

Dpadvo: last thing I want to do is discourage you. If you're really sure this is the right thing for you, get your eye on the goal, and go for it. If each step you take moves you toward that goal, you're doing the right thing. The important point is to take small, careful steps, and to not miss too many. Also, try to get them in the right order. Mistakes along the way are OK. Charging recklessly at the top stair is what we're cautioning against.

First thing a business needs is customers, not an airplane. Who are they?

Market: 3600 locals plus outsiders coming in to the airport hub.

Competition: Bering Air.

What can you offer your clients in addition to what's available to them now?

How do you draw travellers to Nome who would be interested in going to the places you could take them?

What's the attraction? How do you advertise to them?

Could you find a load of passengers/supplies that need to go somewhere and act as an agent to put them on another charter? Can you do this often enough to justify buying your own aircraft?

These are the kinds of questions you ask yourself when building a business plan. Not designed to defeat the idea. You just need to have a plan to move past every obstacle. These are the hard questions a banker will ask when you're asking for the loan to buy that Skywagon!

Well chicks dig 185s
And they are more fun to fly.


But all jokes aside, I'd find you nitch/market and then airplane shop based on that, chances are it's going to end up being a U206 or a sled, just works better for most missions.

But yeah, what others said, I'd want a few hours as a 135 pilot first, learn on other people dime, also you won't be able to act as your own chief pilot without prior 135 experience.

Ideal, work for a 135 like the one you'll want to run one day, in the mean time help in the shop and log your time, end up with 135 experience, your AP, and then the hard part, find your market.


Buy the 180/5 for yourself when you're making the big bucks

I'm a pilot. All I ever want to do is fly and get paid for. Worked a lot of other jobs in my life but it was all just paying the bills until I could fly professionally.

I agree with getting hired by a 135 operator and building some time and experience. You'll learn a ton in a year of that. Hang around the guys that are doing the type of flying you really want to do. You've got tons of guys in AK that can provide you with info.

Don't let someone talk you out of it. If it's what you really want to do and can make the math work I'd go for it. We are all wired to do something different in this world and if this is your thing I'd go for it. If the budget works and your gut says yes is what matters.

NineThreeKilo wrote:..... I'd want a few hours as a 135 pilot first, learn on other people dime, also you won't be able to act as your own chief pilot without prior 135 experience. .....

While getting some part 135 time first is an excellent idea, I think you might be mistaken on the needing it to "be able to act as your own chief pilot". A friend of mine started a single-pilot part 135 air taxi operation a few years ago without nothing other than part 91 time -- no part 135 time whatsoever.

It is a nice dream........

Nome, Alaska is a twin engine/ (Caravan), IFR enviorment. I have flown out of Nome for 17 years and all over the state. Nome weather is bad. I have owned cubs and a 180. I too have thought about this dream, it just never penciled out. Several factors come into play: 1. Lack of clientele 2. Weather 3. Hangar/Maintenance issues 4. Insurance 5. Permits to operate on Federal Lands, etc..

I have some experience in a lot of aircraft and as mentioned above, as the Kotzebue boys have found out a 206 is a better machine for the 135 world. Hauls more people/cargo to villages and has great off-airport capabilities. But it is a very small niche. Bering Air and RAVN Air are real companies. You can not hope to compete with them.

I think at best it is a part time job if you can get some specially flying in with Federal and State Agencies. But that is hard to get into. Their requirements require high time pilots with knowledge of resource flying.

I think it's a losing proposition.

Mike

hotrod180 wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:..... I'd want a few hours as a 135 pilot first, learn on other people dime, also you won't be able to act as your own chief pilot without prior 135 experience. .....

While getting some part 135 time first is an excellent idea, I think you might be mistaken on the needing it to "be able to act as your own chief pilot". A friend of mine started a single-pilot part 135 air taxi operation a few years ago without nothing other than part 91 time -- no part 135 time whatsoever.

It's ether 135/121 time or something the Feds consider a equal level of "experience".


"§ 119.71 Management personnel: Qualifications for operations conducted under part 135 of this chapter.
(a) To serve as Director of Operations under § 119.69(a) for a certificate holder conducting any operations for which the pilot in command is required to hold an airline transport pilot certificate a person must hold an airline transport pilot certificate and either:

(1) Have at least 3 years supervisory or managerial experience within the last 6 years in a position that exercised operational control over any operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter; or

(2) In the case of a person becoming Director of Operations -

(i) For the first time ever, have at least 3 years experience, within the past 6 years, as pilot in command of an aircraft operated under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.

(ii) In the case of a person with previous experience as a Director of Operations, have at least 3 years experience, as pilot in command of an aircraft operated under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.

(b) To serve as Director of Operations under § 119.69(a) for a certificate holder that only conducts operations for which the pilot in command is required to hold a commercial pilot certificate, a person must hold at least a commercial pilot certificate. If an instrument rating is required for any pilot in command for that certificate holder, the Director of Operations must also hold an instrument rating. In addition, the Director of Operations must either -

(1) Have at least 3 years supervisory or managerial experience within the last 6 years in a position that exercised operational control over any operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter; or

(2) In the case of a person becoming Director of Operations -

(i) For the first time ever, have at least 3 years experience, within the past 6 years, as pilot in command of an aircraft operated under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.

(ii) In the case of a person with previous experience as a Director of Operations, have at least 3 years experience as pilot in command of an aircraft operated under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.

(c) To serve as Chief Pilot under § 119.69(a) for a certificate holder conducting any operation for which the pilot in command is required to hold an airline transport pilot certificate a person must hold an airline transport pilot certificate with appropriate ratings and be qualified to serve as pilot in command in at least one aircraft used in the certificate holder's operation and:

(1) In the case of a person becoming a Chief Pilot for the first time ever, have at least 3 years experience, within the past 6 years, as pilot in command of an aircraft operated under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.

(2) In the case of a person with previous experience as a Chief Pilot, have at least 3 years experience as pilot in command of an aircraft operated under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.

(d) To serve as Chief Pilot under § 119.69(a) for a certificate holder that only conducts operations for which the pilot in command is required to hold a commercial pilot certificate, a person must hold at least a commercial pilot certificate. If an instrument rating is required for any pilot in command for that certificate holder, the Chief Pilot must also hold an instrument rating. The Chief Pilot must be qualified to serve as pilot in command in at least one aircraft used in the certificate holder's operation. In addition, the Chief Pilot must:

(1) In the case of a person becoming a Chief Pilot for the first time ever, have at least 3 years experience, within the past 6 years, as pilot in command of an aircraft operated under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.

(2) In the case of a person with previous experience as a Chief Pilot, have at least 3 years experience as pilot in command of an aircraft operated under part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.

(e) To serve as Director of Maintenance under § 119.69(a) a person must hold a mechanic certificate with airframe and powerplant ratings and either:

(1) Have 3 years of experience within the past 6 years maintaining aircraft as a certificated mechanic, including, at the time of appointment as Director of Maintenance, experience in maintaining the same category and class of aircraft as the certificate holder uses; or

(2) Have 3 years of experience within the past 6 years repairing aircraft in a certificated airframe repair station, including 1 year in the capacity of approving aircraft for return to service.

(f) A certificate holder may request a deviation to employ a person who does not meet the appropriate airmen experience requirements, managerial experience requirements, or supervisory experience requirements of this section if the Manager of the Air Transportation Division, AFS-200, or the Manager of the Aircraft Maintenance Division, AFS-300, as appropriate, find that the person has comparable experience, and can effectively perform the functions associated with the position in accordance with the requirements of this chapter and the procedures outlined in the certificate holder's manual. The Administrator may, at any time, terminate any grant of deviation authority issued under this paragraph."

NineThreeKilo wrote: It's ether 135/121 time or something the Feds consider a equal level of "experience". ....

The guy I know just has a commercial license, no ATP, which seems to be a requirement for all the positions you listed. Maybe they have a different set of requirements for a single-pilot part 135 air taxi certificate? Or maybe the requirements have changed?

He doesn't have his air taxi business running anymore, he started it up just to take advantage of a market niche created when a scheduled replacement of the Hood Canal Bridge in 2009 was gonna make travelling to Seattle from the Olympic Peninsula a real PITA.