Here is a quote from a P-51 Legend I interviewed:


“I had fear only when I didn’t know what to expect. And even then, I figure you’ve got about 10 seconds where you can be afraid; then you have to be able to forget the fear. When danger was coming at me, I’d acknowledge it, but then not focus on it. Instead I’d start thinking about what I was going to do. Then too, there were times when I had no fear whatsoever and I was acting from sheer survival instinct; it was action and reaction. Fear is a good thing in many situations when it forces your alertness into a high level of effectiveness."

Some of you may read these questions/statements I'm posting and have kind of a "duh" reaction; some state the obvious I'll grant you. But perspective is all ... and from mine, interviewing and talking with so many different *types* of pilots ... it is enlightening to me how the type of flying a pilot does ~ influences his or her answers to the most basic of questions. Differences abound in attitude and perceptions; telling insights result.

No-brainer that mountain flying has its own specific risks. Ditto that each of you have more than likely had your own personal moments where you had your 10 seconds to be afraid ~ and then kick instinct into gear and purely deal with a situation.

The above perspective is from a WWII combat pilot ~ could you share any thoughts you all have on how you deal with the unique situations that mountain flying exposes you to; does your fear enable you ~ help you to be a better pilot; does it hinder you ~ do you struggle to overcome it?

Obviously ANY thoughts you all might offer will be educational and appreciated .... my thanks again for letting me gain further insight from your personal experiences and opinions about the type of flying you do.

I struggle to see how this has much to do with backcountry flying.

I guess we could all be asking questions, gathering free research about our day jobs, but being an iron peddler that wouldn't have much to do with backcountry flying

I will go back to folding clothes

mr scout wrote:I struggle to see how this has much to do with backcountry flying.

I guess we could all be asking questions, gathering free research about our day jobs, but being an iron peddler that wouldn't have much to do with backcountry flying

I will go back to folding clothes

Ah ~ risky that folding clothes stuff; takes feel and timing and if you hit a pesky downdraft on the shake and fold it'll throw your timing off

Backcountry flying involves a higher amount of risk than the average GA pilot exposes himself to ~ as well a higher degree of skill. If you read my intro on the posting I initially put up about the Sparky Imeson/Rob Hunter clinic ... you'll know why I'm asking these questions ~ not to waste your time nor take you away from your laundry ...... a better understanding of how a variety of mountain/backcountry flyers think; allows me to write better.

Selfish I'll admit.

mr scout wrote:I struggle to see how this has much to do with backcountry flying.

That's what i thought when I saw the photo you hugging a dog, but I didn't object.

...do you work for the FAA?

1SeventyZ wrote:

mr scout wrote:I struggle to see how this has much to do with backcountry flying.

That's what i thought when I saw the photo you hugging a dog, but I didn't object.

As Maxwell Smart once said you (Missed it by that much) That picture was posted in the spirit of tit jobs, kids, writers and those that needed a room, in which your right had nothing to do with backcountry flying I took it down after a couple days of inside humor between a few of us degenerates.

Sorry Zane it wont happen again Now where did I put my starch

FWIW, Nothing compares to "receiving" fire. While I did not do any air to air, I can tell you that the only time I have ever been as worried as then was in a thunderstorm, near the equator in a poorly equipped crop duster. Even then, it wasn't nearly as intense as being shot at. Lasted a lot longer, but wasn't as intense.

a64pilot wrote:FWIW, Nothing compares to "receiving" fire. While I did not do any air to air, I can tell you that the only time I have ever been as worried as then was in a thunderstorm, near the equator in a poorly equipped crop duster. Even then, it wasn't nearly as intense as being shot at. Lasted a lot longer, but wasn't as intense.

Something that both WWII Aces said to me was that they had "plans" in their heads; enemy would do this - they'd do that; this action would require this reaction; as much as possible the situations they would encounter in combat were played over and over in their heads for the purpose of having their reactions ingrained in their muscle memory and instinct ... crucial to them.

Of course aerial combat wasn't "predictible"; but to an extent, listening to these men ... there were patterns and behavior that were and the good pilots used those to their advantage.

Now ~ as this relates to "Backcountry/Mountain Flying" and this whole fear subject ... seems it could be argued that the predictibility factor is in some ways even less for you guys. Unpredictable weather of course the first thing that comes to mind ... and "a64pilot" you just spoke to that; a thunderstorm ... being where it shouldn't have been lost us Scott Crossfield no? Sparky Imeson's one career crash after 20,000 plus hours last year ... unexpected downdraft.

From my perspective looking in - not as a pilot; much less a backcountry/mountain flyer, but someone who talks to them, knows them, listens carefully to their stories - and also as someone who talks in depth with pilots who do other types of flying besides "from point a to point b pleasure flying" - one of the reasons I'm really curious as a writer to get your perspectives more on all this is that I think you underestimate yourselves.

Not schmoozing you to make brownie points ~ I mean it. From what I've learned about the type of flying you do, to do it well, to survive, to continue to expand your skills ~ takes a damn good pilot with a good attitude and pretty strong personal skills; that obviously just doesn't include everybody out there with their PPL.

Probably doesn't include ones that spend their days folding laundry (sorry ... couldn't resist)

mr scout wrote:....

I thought he was a good looking dog, no need to take anything down. He probably pisses on stuff less than you do.

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:The question you're asking is so ambiguous that it isn't really answerable, but I'll take a whack at it.

Method to my ambiguous madness ... thank you for what it brought out here.

Tricky thing I'm trying to do ... write to appeal to the aviation community AND ... the general public. To do that? I have to dig a bit deep into the human nature aspects of pilots ~ ALL types of pilots; from newbies to pro to everybody in between. Only thing I look for as a requirement ... is a genuine passion for the doing.

I have a series of very basic questions I give the pilots I interview to answer first before we talk; same questions to everyone - from WWII Ace to NASA Shuttle Astronaut. Those questions too could be called ambiguous; and I get some truly gem answers as a result of asking them. Does is surprise you that pilots passionate about what they do, tend to wander down all sorts of paths, when I ask them with real interest about how they feel about flying?

I'm sure many of you are sitting there reading and going "who IS this person and why is she bugging us?"

But I promise I'm not clueless; I have my own genuine passion for the subject matter; and I have the invested valuable time of too many generous people on my shoulders with this project now to risk wasting anybody's time and thoughts ~ including yours here. It was nice of Zane to allow me to post the notice for Sparky and Rob's seminar, and in the process to talk about what I'm doing and ask questions.

Nice of you all ~ to put up with me ~ and reply when you do.

Fear! Those who have the power to take away one's feedom to move about ..either on land or in the air...by regulation, taxation or fear mongers. Watch out for the uninformed with something to gain.
I love to fly and I respect others that do no matter their background or what they fly..P51's or J3's. I do not know what kind of fear others may have while flying or any other task, nor do I claim I can interview others to get an absolute answer.
We as pilots have taken training and used our own experience along with input from others to obtain our level of confidence.
Flywriter..you need the first hand experience...then draw your own conclusions

Ok I will take a stab at this. I can come at this subject from 3 different kinds of flying that I do, all involving mountain flying. 1st as a CFI having taught seaplane flying in the mountains including multi-engine sea training. Having students always trying to kill you in a Piper Apache on floats in a canyon single-engine, yes that invokes fear at times. Especially when they lock up at 300' AGL. I have also had the best of plans in the highcountry go to shit with a SES student and wonder how I ever made it out of a canyon.

Second is my personal mountain flying. Pushed the limits of myself and the plane a little too far just to have a little fun,... several times. Never had an incident yet knock on wood. I flew out of Mexican Hat once with my wife in our Scout in 20-25 knot winds because the other choice was to be stuck in a non-forcasted snow storm bearing down fast. Had the crap beat out of us leaving. Landed at Green River light on fuel at sunset with 40 mph sustained winds and could not taxi off the runway without flipping the plane. Needless to say we pushed it off the runway not before it lifted a wing and my wife hanging from the strut. Was I scared?! Hell Yes.

And last is my job as a Tanker pilot. Here in California it usually involves flying in the mountains in places we really don't want to be, in the afternoon, 100 degrees, with low vis. and winds, in a heavily loaded plane at 1.2 Vso at 100' AGL. Any of the pilots I work with will tell you they scare themselves at least once a fire season. One of our pilots was one of the first Top Gun Instructors and flew in Vietnam. He will be the first to tell you the job is more intense than combat and he is still pulling seat-cushion out of his ass from last season. Usually the biggest scares are in the mountains and canyons. Every so often you hit a tree, happened last year, but the pilot flew it back without incident, except for the shakes and pride. Thank God for Grumman Ironworks who built the plane!!! Oh ya, and he has been flying tankers for 28 years.

But the common thread in all of these is that fear is a normal reaction in flying in the mountains because you are dealing with something much greater than you. How you are TRAINED and DEAL with it is what keeps you alive and going. Knowing your limits and acknowledging within yourself that you will NEVER stop learning is what makes fear a learning tool and not a barrier.

The day I stop learning is the day I better stop flying because I am going to kill myself.

Just my opinion. Hope that helps.

hicountry wrote::oops: Fear! Those who have the power to take away one's feedom to move about ..either on land or in the air...by regulation, taxation or fear mongers. Watch out for the uninformed with something to gain.
I love to fly and I respect others that do no matter their background or what they fly..P51's or J3's. I do not know what kind of fear others may have while flying or any other task, nor do I claim I can interview others to get an absolute answer.
We as pilots have taken training and used our own experience along with input from others to obtain our level of confidence.
Flywriter..you need the first hand experience...then draw your own conclusions

There are no absolute answers ... only better understanding.

I gain first hand experience as I can; unfortunately limitations keep me from achieving my ticket at this point in my life so that I can have my own first hand experiences; draw my own conclusions about being a pilot. But I don't let that limit me. And to some extent it's an advantage given that I aspire to write a book that will appeal not only to the aviation community - but to the general public as well.

I do what I can though; fly as often as I can in our friend's 182 - been up in the Pitts and Trike. Can't say I had to overcome any fears to do those things though ~ I love/loved every minute and will fly in any and all again in a heartbeat when given the opportunity

Splashpilot wrote:Ok I will take a stab at this. I can come at this subject from 3 different kinds of flying that I do, all involving mountain flying. 1st as a CFI having taught seaplane flying in the mountains including multi-engine sea training. Having students always trying to kill you in a Piper Apache on floats in a canyon single-engine, yes that invokes fear at times. Especially when they lock up at 300' AGL. I have also had the best of plans in the highcountry go to shit with a SES student and wonder how I ever made it out of a canyon.

Second is my personal mountain flying. Pushed the limits of myself and the plane a little too far just to have a little fun,... several times. Never had an incident yet knock on wood. I flew out of Mexican Hat once with my wife in our Scout in 20-25 knot winds because the other choice was to be stuck in a non-forcasted snow storm bearing down fast. Had the crap beat out of us leaving. Landed at Green River light on fuel at sunset with 40 mph sustained winds and could not taxi off the runway without flipping the plane. Needless to say we pushed it off the runway not before it lifted a wing and my wife hanging from the strut. Was I scared?! Hell Yes.

And last is my job as a Tanker pilot. Here in California it usually involves flying in the mountains in places we really don't want to be, in the afternoon, 100 degrees, with low vis. and winds, in a heavily loaded plane at 1.2 Vso at 100' AGL. Any of the pilots I work with will tell you they scare themselves at least once a fire season. One of our pilots was one of the first Top Gun Instructors and flew in Vietnam. He will be the first to tell you the job is more intense than combat and he is still pulling seat-cushion out of his ass from last season. Usually the biggest scares are in the mountains and canyons. Every so often you hit a tree, happened last year, but the pilot flew it back without incident, except for the shakes and pride. Thank God for Grumman Ironworks who built the plane!!! Oh ya, and he has been flying tankers for 28 years.

But the common thread in all of these is that fear is a normal reaction in flying in the mountains because you are dealing with something much greater than you. How you are TRAINED and DEAL with it is what keeps you alive and going. Knowing your limits and acknowledging within yourself that you will NEVER stop learning is what makes fear a learning tool and not a barrier.

The day I stop learning is the day I better stop flying because I am going to kill myself.

Just my opinion. Hope that helps.

Appreciated and well stated perspective here; definately helpful. I just PM'd you about your Tanker pilot status ... spent time at RDD talking with CDF/Dep't of Forestry pilots last year; hats off to you all ... in my opinion, in the public's perception there's not near enough credit given or understanding for what you do out there.

I've gotten a few responses privately that are immensely helpful also; seems to be an element of human nature rearing it's head here that respects the old adage about "it being better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

There are I know some truly savvy, experienced and expert backcountry pilots on this board ... I suppose it's human nature to not want to throw out ones "fear inducing" experiences that might qualify for reactions along the lines of, "wow, was THAT ever a stupid thing to do!" Of course my interview process has proven that the most savvy, experienced and expert pilots out there ~ ALL, have stories like that to share from their lives flying.

But please don't hesitate to PM me with thoughts if for whatever reason you're reluctant to do so in the forum; although really ~ what splashpilot just wrote I would think is far from anything that anybody would think less of him for ... his thoughts and experiences merely point to the fact that he's a ~ pilot. And a good one.

Fear of Flying

Wasn't that the name of a book by or about lesbians?????

Oh well, to try to make an honest answer to your question I run into two distinct types of fear in my flying.

1. This is the momentary scare or more like being startled, like when you are on very short final to a bush strip and a moose steps out in front of you. No time to really be scared, you react and react properly or you go splat. This is the "fun" type of fear, the thrill and adrenaline rush that makes you say "holy shit, how did I get out of that?"

2. This is the fear that I hate, this is when you are flying down the channel and get caught in a sucker hole that closes off behind you and the fog/snow/cloud is dropping right down around your ears. You think "Oh god, I screwed up really bad this time, Am I going to kill my wife, my kids, myself? This can last anywhere from a few seconds to many long minutes before there is some resolution. Either you get lucky and come out of it or you do what is right and get out of it or you become one more statistic. You don't freeze up, you don't panic, you don't puke and you don't crap your pants because YOU MUST FLY THE AIRPLANE though you may want to do any and all of those things you can't. These flights are the reason that many people I know have quit flying. Some can handle this stuff better than others but I really think it affects us all to some degree.

I may get jumped on and told I should not fly into those kinds of conditions but it ain't like I can just turn right and get out of it. You can't outclimb the rocks, and you can't go around the storm so you have to stay in the canyon and the weather moves awfully fast sometimes.

I can handle most any sort of problem I have had to face so far, bad landing spots, engine failure, critters on the runway, flat tail wheel, ice on the plane and ice on the runway, none of this scares me much because I still have some degree of control (or at least the illusion of control) but when I am blind in a VFR plane it scares the crap out of me. Mostly I think because there is so much that is out of my control.

Hope these thoughts help you out a bit.

Shane

Flywriter

Here is a quote out of one of my old logbooks

Today was a day in infamy for both of us. We both proved w/o a doubt by our survival testimony that we are real pilots, not phony or puke pilots that fabricate stories like ours that never happened.
So brother floyd I salute you and welcome you as a professional REAL PILOT Col. Charles W Fink ATP#%^$%&

You may remember Chuck, he was one of the pilots that flew the first nonstop flight around the world in 1957 It was called Operation Power Flight

Yes I have felt fear, but its like going out with a fat girl, you just don't want your friends to find out

FlyWrighter, check out my blogs on my "myspace" page. Most of them were "scared the bejesus" out of me stories about flying.
John

http://www.myspace.com/8gcbc

mr scout wrote:Flywriter

Here is a quote out of one of my old logbooks

Today was a day in infamy for both of us. We both proved w/o a doubt by our survival testimony that we are real pilots, not phony or puke pilots that fabricate stories like ours that never happened.
So brother floyd I salute you and welcome you as a professional REAL PILOT Col. Charles W Fink ATP#%^$%&

You may remember Chuck, he was one of the pilots that flew the first nonstop flight around the world in 1957 It was called Operation Power Flight

Yes I have felt fear, but its like going out with a fat girl, you just don't want your friends to find out

Oh mr scout ~ methinks you have some good "stories" hiding in your laundry basket (and a sense of humor ~ which is a definite recurring theme I find in my pilot research ...)

shorton wrote:Fear of Flying

Wasn't that the name of a book by or about lesbians?????

Oh well, to try to make an honest answer to your question I run into two distinct types of fear in my flying.

1. This is the momentary scare or more like being startled, like when you are on very short final to a bush strip and a moose steps out in front of you. No time to really be scared, you react and react properly or you go splat. This is the "fun" type of fear, the thrill and adrenaline rush that makes you say "holy shit, how did I get out of that?"

2. This is the fear that I hate, this is when you are flying down the channel and get caught in a sucker hole that closes off behind you and the fog/snow/cloud is dropping right down around your ears. You think "Oh god, I screwed up really bad this time, Am I going to kill my wife, my kids, myself? This can last anywhere from a few seconds to many long minutes before there is some resolution. Either you get lucky and come out of it or you do what is right and get out of it or you become one more statistic. You don't freeze up, you don't panic, you don't puke and you don't crap your pants because YOU MUST FLY THE AIRPLANE though you may want to do any and all of those things you can't. These flights are the reason that many people I know have quit flying. Some can handle this stuff better than others but I really think it affects us all to some degree.

I may get jumped on and told I should not fly into those kinds of conditions but it ain't like I can just turn right and get out of it. You can't outclimb the rocks, and you can't go around the storm so you have to stay in the canyon and the weather moves awfully fast sometimes.

I can handle most any sort of problem I have had to face so far, bad landing spots, engine failure, critters on the runway, flat tail wheel, ice on the plane and ice on the runway, none of this scares me much because I still have some degree of control (or at least the illusion of control) but when I am blind in a VFR plane it scares the crap out of me. Mostly I think because there is so much that is out of my control.

Hope these thoughts help you out a bit.

Shane

Thanks Shane ~ that whole "YOU MUST FLY THE AIRPLANE" aspect in the midst of a "scare" is (like the humor) a recurring theme. As is the sense of control that a pilot gets from repetitive good decision making and attention to detail and focus on the moment when they're flying; complacency kills. I get you when you say blind in a VFR plane scares the crap out of you ... your sharing of these perceptions about control do help me out.

And yeah, yeah ~ I hear those of you reading this and going "well DUH" ... but each time you guys affirm what I'm seeing to be true for you all; the deeper my understanding gets ~ and the better I will be able to express to *non* aviators ... why you that fly and fly well ... are people worthy of reading about.

patrol guy wrote:FlyWrighter, check out my blogs on my "myspace" page. Most of them were "scared the bejesus" out of me stories about flying.
John

http://www.myspace.com/8gcbc

Will do ~ thanks!