Unless your doing some kind of flying that scares you so bad that as often as not your pre-flight consists of emptying your stomach contents, your not doing the type of flying the WWII Army aviators did. Those guy's are the true meaning of heroes. Not to do it the first time, but to do it the second time.
I just don't think our flying compares to that. It takes a truly unusual kind of person to enjoy that kind of rush.
I'm too old, I enjoy seeing things and places the earth pigs will never see, that and the sense of freedom is why I fly.

a64pilot wrote:Unless your doing some kind of flying that scares you so bad that as often as not your pre-flight consists of emptying your stomach contents, your not doing the type of flying the WWII Army aviators did. Those guy's are the true meaning of heroes. Not to do it the first time, but to do it the second time.
I just don't think our flying compares to that. It takes a truly unusual kind of person to enjoy that kind of rush.
I'm too old, I enjoy seeing things and places the earth pigs will never see, that and the sense of freedom is why I fly.

"Earth pigs" good one....

No, I agree you can't "compare" the type of flying you do to combat aviators. But.....but......part of what - as a writer - peeked my interest in doing this book, is the reaction I'd get telling the backcountry flying stories of our friend ... to our "earth pig" friends who could care less about flying or pilots. "Get out of here - you're kidding me right? He didn't REALLY do that?! THERE?!" type stuff. Followed by, "tell me more."

Because *I* was so impressed with what he was doing - having been educated on what was involved in order to be ABLE to do - what he was doing ... I'd show a picture of say Soldier Bar; share some of the feelings he'd shared about flying in canyons etc., and I realized as I'd watch the reactions I'd get that ....hmmmmm.....good "stories" here if told properly.

Again...you guys are too close to it. You DO it; it's normal (well, as "normal" as what you do can be thought of!) to you. But as a person outside looking in - as a writer looking to show a perspective and an angle and a "story" to a reader that will offer them hopefully something new and exciting and interesting; the kind of flying you do is fascinating.

And let's face it - the fear angle is huge in the mind of "non-aviators"; "are they crazy?!", "how can they fly those small planes in canyons like that?!", "wow, talk about guts!" ... get my drift?

So .... what I want to do in telling "stories" about pilots; is get across to the non-aviation person, how you all are more than a little admirable in the "traits" you've had to develop and exhibit - in order to DO ... the different types of flying you do.

Make sense? I'm getting so much out of the input you are all offering from such different perspectives; I'm hoping if you understand the reason a bit better about *why* ... I'm asking such seemingly ambiguous and to you, unimportant questions ~ you'll be a bit more inclined to share your thoughts.

Or not I didn't get this far on this project though ~ without throwing things out anyway, regardless of the occasional silence; more times than one I admit to kind of feeling like a bombing comedian on stage ... but it's worth it to me to keep plugging away and asking ~ because when I do get responses, I get offered - from a writer's standpoint - well worth waiting for gem material, that I'm grateful for.

I posted a video a while back of a trip we took into Big Creek. The name of the video is Big Creek a landing with Essie, Polly and Gordy. It is on Youtube.com I posted on one of the forums that I check out. One of the replies I got was something like this: " If I was flying there I would be saying keep running engine, keep running engine." He mentioned that would scare the c**P out of me. I am not afraid of flying into the back country, but I do make sure I check my aircraft out before I start. I have a good mechanic and we don't cut any corners. I know that an aircraft is about 2,000 parts flying in close formation, and things do break and wear out. The fact that it is a 49 year old airplane doesn't help. I have a healthy respect for the backcountry and the weather. I know what happens when a pilot flies from VFR into IMC in the mountains. Yes, I hate to admit it but I have had that happen a couple of times. Once high in the Rocky Mnts. east of Saratoga, Wy. I was trying to climb over some weather and I didn't outclimb the clouds. I had to make a 180 to get back out of it. Not good and I beat myself up the rest of the trip. In the long run I think it helped me because it scared the hell out of me to be in a cloud ( non-IFR) and have your stall warning go off) Until you have been there you don't really know what it feels like. Bob

skybobb wrote:I posted a video a while back of a trip we took into Big Creek. The name of the video is Big Creek a landing with Essie, Polly and Gordy. It is on Youtube.com I posted on one of the forums that I check out. One of the replies I got was something like this: " If I was flying there I would be saying keep running engine, keep running engine." He mentioned that would scare the c**P out of me. I am not afraid of flying into the back country, but I do make sure I check my aircraft out before I start. I have a good mechanic and we don't cut any corners. I know that an aircraft is about 2,000 parts flying in close formation, and things do break and wear out. The fact that it is a 49 year old airplane doesn't help. I have a healthy respect for the backcountry and the weather. I know what happens when a pilot flies from VFR into IMC in the mountains. Yes, I hate to admit it but I have had that happen a couple of times. Once high in the Rocky Mnts. east of Saratoga, Wy. I was trying to climb over some weather and I didn't outclimb the clouds. I had to make a 180 to get back out of it. Not good and I beat myself up the rest of the trip. In the long run I think it helped me because it scared the hell out of me to be in a cloud ( non-IFR) and have your stall warning go off) Until you have been there you don't really know what it feels like. Bob

You make good points Bob – the difference in attitude that understanding and training can make ... that what you did on that video that would "scare the c**p" out of another, you find enjoyable because you've gained the skill and experience to make it so; that complacency and lack of attention to detail can make a negative difference in the outcome when doing something that involves risk; that respect and not arrogance toward the environment you do what you do in helps keep you safe; that you take your fear and deal with it, using it to help you learn from experience and apply those lessons toward better decision making in the future - helping you to get better and more competent at what you do.

Naah ... you pilots don't have anything to teach anybody about anything ... do you?

Speaking of pilots and fear, there is another type. Quick moments you have to react to. Today while on my pipeline route I had a couple of these.

While in the back country, going into hairy places you are usually “juiced up” for the approach and after that you relax. (…the scary parts are part of the plan and are thought out in advance).

First I need to set up the situation. I norminaly fly on the left side of the pipeline right of ways looking out my right side door window because that window is cut lower then the left window, giving a better straight down look. So I am looking down out the right and then out the front and back and forth all day. I have a low level wavier that lets me stay at 500 feet over cities, towns and stuff. Out in the baron farm country, I am often lower. More like 300 feet.

When I spot something, I have to make a temporary weight point, then look for a mile marker, then write down a description of what I saw, the mile marker number, along with the gps coordinates, and then phone all this information to girls at head quarters.

It gets busy while you are scanning forward, out the side, writing notes and copying numbers from the gps and reading this data to the girls on the phone. I always try to fly with my trim set up slightly, so that the plane drifts up, not down while busy. (I know of one pipeline pilot who did a cruise speed landing in a field, while writing notes).

So today, I am maxed out busy, 300 feet, and all of a sudden this bright yellow turbine ag plane shoots straight up (I am looking at the top side) in front of my spinner about 100 yards in front of me. He looked like a rocket shot from an under ground bunker! I yank back and right on the stick for a climbing right turn. That ag guy does a left hand canyon turn that goodness.

One of my friends is the only ag guy in this area and I do “run into” him occasionally. He is always on this certain frequency, so I switch over and ask if that’s him. It is and I apologize for not seeing him sooner. This is the scary part. He says that he didn’t see me. After his next turn, he says oh, I see you out there now!


That was when the fear set in. The first part was reflex. A couple hours later I come head to head with another patrol pilot going the opposite way on a shared right of way. We saw and avoided ok, the wiggled wings. jg

For some reason I,ve got my flashlight out and my head burried in the 180 looking for something.What I am looking for I dont know.I had the plane for almost a year at this point,figured I would get to know it a little better.There was always a little play in the elevator that I thought was normal.Long story short.There is a bolt that basically holds the whole elevator assembly/linkage(whatever you call it ,I am no mechanic)together.I do know that a bolt that has lost its nut and is hanging on by its last thread is enough to most likely ruin your flight and most likely have a bad outcome.I had just come back from flying the whole family to Vegas.Needless to say I was SICK to my stomach How long had that bolt been like that? How much longer would it have stayed like that? I don't seem to get afraid too much when I bring on potential disaster by my own doing.The wings flying off or a bolt coming out, thats fear to me.I would hate to try and kiss my ass goodbye as I am trying to fly with no wings or with the yoke going in and back with no response.Also if that bolt did come out and I somehow pulled a landing outta my ass and ended up in the middle of nowhere Nevada with my wife and 2 kids THAT is fear!Sometimes going from parking to the terminal is an epic with the little munchkins!

This has got to be a woman thing... I mean trying to figure out whats going through our mind all the time. I've always been afraid of heights. I guess that's why I fly.... All the women are now going "HUH".

iceman wrote:This has got to be a woman thing... I mean trying to figure out whats going through our mind all the time. I've always been afraid of heights. I guess that's why I fly.... All the women are now going "HUH".

Yeah ~ guilty as charged ... *woman thing*

And naah ~ all the women are just going, "typical" male commentary.....

Certain people seem to think that trying to effectively delve into what's going on in your minds as pilots and sharing it with the world in a way that brings back to the general public some interest and admiration for aviators - especially in a day and age where GA is considered somewhat of an expensive indulgence and flying in general merely something to be scared of ... or a pain in the a$$ - is a good thing.

One pilot I spoke in depth with, was always airsick every time he flew. That's why he taught himself aerobatics and did them every time he went up until he didn't get sick anymore.

Now he's known (among many, many other things) for pouring tea upside down in a Shrike Commander and not spilling a drop.

Yep....why in the world ~ would I want to know what's going on in HIS mind?

low rider wrote:For some reason I,ve got my flashlight out and my head burried in the 180 looking for something.What I am looking for I dont know.I had the plane for almost a year at this point,figured I would get to know it a little better.There was always a little play in the elevator that I thought was normal.Long story short.There is a bolt that basically holds the whole elevator assembly/linkage(whatever you call it ,I am no mechanic)together.I do know that a bolt that has lost its nut and is hanging on by its last thread is enough to most likely ruin your flight and most likely have a bad outcome.I had just come back from flying the whole family to Vegas.Needless to say I was SICK to my stomach How long had that bolt been like that? How much longer would it have stayed like that? I don't seem to get afraid too much when I bring on potential disaster by my own doing.The wings flying off or a bolt coming out, thats fear to me.I would hate to try and kiss my ass goodbye as I am trying to fly with no wings or with the yoke going in and back with no response.Also if that bolt did come out and I somehow pulled a landing outta my ass and ended up in the middle of nowhere Nevada with my wife and 2 kids THAT is fear!Sometimes going from parking to the terminal is an epic with the little munchkins!

That whole aspect of dealing with "that which you have no control over" ... from up in the air ... obviously freaks many people out (and that is a perspective that I get from "non" aviators). What I see in talking to pilots - good ones - is the dedication to diligence; consistancy; good decision making; avoid complacency at all costs....etc., etc., etc. I'm not unaware that I'm preaching to the choir here.

But in this case ~ you learned from this fear; at least that's what I took away from the tale (well, also that the sense of humor thing is holding true yet again ) ... thank you for sharing this.

Who cares,, He's a tea drinker! I hope you realize I'm just pulling your chain which is a common trait among those of us on this site.

iceman wrote:Who cares,, He's a tea drinker! I hope you realize I'm just pulling your chain which is a common trait among those of us on this site.

Naah really???? You weren't just being kinda rude and a teeny bit snarky???? Mr. tea drinker puts his pants on same as everybody around here; not trying to impress anybody mentioning him .... and I've got unknown GA pilots I've talked to that frankly I rank right up there on top as far as being admirable human beings; celebrity doesn't impress me.

But conversely? Not gonna let the perception be out there that I don't take what I'm doing here seriously ~ and that I'm potentially just "yanking you all's chain" and wasting your time by throwing these questions out at you. I figure implies I'm not playing games with this whole project ... to share that I've spoken with him.

I've got a healthy sense of humor and a good thick skin Iceman no..... out of me.....

of course a thick skin is essential here, and I really wasn't being rude, just tongue in cheek, but re reading my post I can see where it might seem that way. Sorry, anyway I'm fearless so I can't be of any help in your project

iceman wrote:of course a thick skin is essential here, and I really wasn't being rude, just tongue in cheek, but re reading my post I can see where it might seem that way. Sorry, anyway I'm fearless so I can't be of any help in your project

It's No apologies necessary oh "fearless" one (speaking of which ~ that you who took the Toad's Wild Ride in your photo gallery? Better van than plane; whoever it was; hope no one was hurt)

no not hurt just pissed off at the kid. who hit me... Just a little sore and stiff but that was last week.

sounds like you two should go on a date

low rider wrote:sounds like you two should on a date

Must be all that you do ... "sounds like you two should on a date". I mean sheesh lowrider, if you're gonna a writer at least do it in a complete sentence???

And that's it for me for the day because I am WAY over my self-imposed smilie limit now ...

Actually even if I wasn't married to the same great guy for 28 years ... after all my research for this book and knowing what I know now that you guys are just re-enforcing?

No way I'd be crazy enough to date a pilot! Speaking of

(lowrider? I am laughing here over this; and did take it in the spirit I assume you are the gentleman to have meant it in )

Lordy you guys are a tough room to work!

Been thinking back to scary situations and can really only remember one b ad one. We were returning to JC one year and there were Tstorms in the area of Big Creek but approaching JC the weather looked good at JC. There was a large buildup of clouds to the northeast which looked to be far enough away. Approaching JC went normal as it always does approaching in the canyon west of Yellowpine. The closer we got to Yellow Pine the rougher it got. Turning the corner over Yellowpine to final at JC was an experience I won"t soon forget. Low and slow at this point I was suddenly hit by crosswinds trying to slam me into the right side of the canyon. Full left aileron and rudder pulled the tripacer back to the mid of the canyon and then began the e ride. 1500 Ft per min up and down drafts for about the last mile. One sheer put the wings almost perpendicular the ground. Had to use full power to get out of downdrafts. Finally over the threshold the wind switched to a tailwind and pushed me almost to mid field before touchdown. Learned a valuable lesson the hard way. NEVER under estimate the power of T storms in the Mts. By the way all this was in CAVU weather at JC. Tied down and grabbed a cool beer and enjoyed it under the wing.....So there''s my fear story. Yeah I was terrified but I didn't know it till sipping that beer. Guess I was too busy to think about it at the time....

iceman wrote:Been thinking back to scary situations and can really only remember one b ad one. We were returning to JC one year and there were Tstorms in the area of Big Creek but approaching JC the weather looked good at JC. There was a large buildup of clouds to the northeast which looked to be far enough away. Approaching JC went normal as it always does approaching in the canyon west of Yellowpine. The closer we got to Yellow Pine the rougher it got. Turning the corner over Yellowpine to final at JC was an experience I won"t soon forget. Low and slow at this point I was suddenly hit by crosswinds trying to slam me into the right side of the canyon. Full left aileron and rudder pulled the tripacer back to the mid of the canyon and then began the e ride. 1500 Ft per min up and down drafts for about the last mile. One sheer put the wings almost perpendicular the ground. Had to use full power to get out of downdrafts. Finally over the threshold the wind switched to a tailwind and pushed me almost to mid field before touchdown. Learned a valuable lesson the hard way. NEVER under estimate the power of T storms in the Mts. By the way all this was in CAVU weather at JC. Tied down and grabbed a cool beer and enjoyed it under the wing.....So there''s my fear story. Yeah I was terrified but I didn't know it till sipping that beer. Guess I was too busy to think about it at the time....

Again ~ weather seems to be THE biggie for the type of flying you guys do ... that and the ability to make good decisions about what to get yourselves into, and what not. Obviously that applies to ANY type of flying ... just getting more enforced for me that it's even more crucial for backcountry flying.

I had a guy who is only in ground school contact me about the Sparky Imeson seminar; asked if he thought it would be "over his head". I wrote back and said nothing this man has to teach you will do anything less than positively increase your knowledge and make you a better pilot regardless of where you are in your training or the kind of flying you are going to do. When I read his Mountain Flying Bible (although OK admittedly ... a LOT of that was SO over my head it's not even funny), I was struck by how much just basic good piloting advice there was to be found in it, separate from the mountain/backcountry specific knowledge offered.

Ok....thus ends the Sparky Imeson plug portion of this posting

shorton wrote: This is the "fun" type of fear, the thrill and adrenaline rush that makes you say "holy shit,

Exactly..... We all do this because it is "FUN", and it makes us feel alive. If your mouth is maybe a little dry, or your palms a little damp, that just means your "really" havin fun.....

Now fear, that's when you have to face your wife after forgetting Valentines Day....... or sitting in the Dentist Chair......

Coyote Ugly wrote:

shorton wrote: This is the "fun" type of fear, the thrill and adrenaline rush that makes you say "holy shit,

Exactly..... We all do this because it is "FUN", and it makes us feel alive. If your mouth is maybe a little dry, or your palms a little damp, that just means your "really" havin fun.....

Now fear, that's when you have to face your wife after forgetting Valentines Day....... or sitting in the Dentist Chair......

"Fun" Fear

I like that concept.....gonna have to mull that over for a while.

Here's a question that just came to me, and although not exactly related to fear per sey ~ if I word it right you'll see the connection, and hopefully enough of you will read this and respond and I don't need to start another subject thread to get a thought or two:

I know in "regular flying" (so for the moment define that as landing on the pavement) you often get all kinds (I read the AOPA Forum a lot ) Seems to me that the type of flyingability/personality/attitude a backcountry pilot needs in order to do what you do well and safely, kind of by its nature sifts the wheat from the chaff so to speak, to a certain extent?

One reads some really "good lord what WERE they thinking" type stories sometimes in normal GA accident reports that lead one to believe that the pilot was - well - ....you know what I'm speaking to - the kind that'll load a plane up with too many golf clubs and passengers on a hot day and then try to make it to the tournament when someone with more smarts would have known that was a stupid thing to do.

Do you see *less* of that kind of pilot error and attitude in backcountry flying do you think? Friends & fellow pilots you run into out there in the dirt ~ do you think there's less of it in backcountry flyers than in your average GA pilot?