Hey Matt -

I meant to ask you, how'd the ski strip at McCall treat you? So far, you're the only one to use it. We've added another 2 feet or so since you were here, just to keep it soft.

John

Uh, technical points??? Note the flap position. And, what is Cessna's recommended procedure for soft field landing? Full flaps, for one thing.

That is NOT that much snow, actually. I had to fly a snowblower over to a lake that a certain numbnuts pilot I knew at the time had landed a rental 172 on. That snow was knee deep. The 172 landed short alright, but didn't go over. We used the snowblower to create a runway on the ice, and flew the thing home. No damage done.

I'd bet that this guy was just so oblivious to what was going on, he didn't even THINK about soft fields, and when it settled in, he probably just released the backpressure on the yoke, and over she went.

This snow isn't all that deep, but it's probably heavy snow. There should be no problem rolling it back over, and a snowblower can clear a runway.

Here's a link to the owners--yes, it's a rental......http://www.twinoaksairpark.com/

MTV

If you read some of the stories from the old timers in AK, they'd likely straighten the prop on a tree stump, snowshoe a runway and fly it out. Of course, they would not have been in that predicament in the first place.

I wonder who's photo's ? Did the reporter hike in there or did our fearless pilot share his "experience" with the world? Which begs the question, which stunt is more ignorant ?

Those poor guys at Twin Oaks would have no luck if it weren't for bad luck. I hope the insurance premiums in the future don't put them out of the rental biz.

N6EA wrote:I wonder who's photo's ? Did the reporter hike in there

Beaver Marsh airport is about 10 feet off Hwy 97 between Klamath Falls and Bend Oregon.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Beaver Marsh airport is about 10 feet off Hwy 97 between Klamath Falls and Bend Oregon.

Gump

Ah, roadside entertainment,,, nice !

If I recall correctly, there is some interesting dialogue about luck and flying in the movie "12 O'clock High." True, it was war time avaition but I think it may apply in general.

Ok I'll ask the question...

What is the most snow he could have landed & taken off on?

I think I've read (and verified with actual flying) a tricycle geared plane can work off a snow covered hard surface if the snow is < 1/3 the tire's hieght. That is the fluffy kind of snow; not crusted or slushy.

With 6x6.00 tires (the biggest that can fit on my Musketeer ) I have flown off 5" of snow. And I've flown off 4" in a Tomahawk (not recommended because of the t-tail.)

-Todd Giencke

Hasn't Beaver Marsh been closed for years? I thought I remember seeing that the state was trying to sell the property.

Todd,

There is simply NO way you can answer that question. There is an old story around Alaska that the Inuit people have dozens of words for "snow". I've known a few of those folks who kind of deny that, sorta.

But, consider that we have all sorts of adjectives that append the word "snow", such as: Powder snow, crusty snow, packed snow, fluffy snow, etc, etc, ad nauseum....

Point is, if that particular snow had been brand spanking new, fluffy, powder snow, he'd probably have gotten away with it. And, the other salient point is that when landing in snow, you aren't going to know the answer to that question until its too late.

THAT, specifically, is why they invented skis for aircraft...

MTV

So how deep was the snow do you think? More than a foot?

Pat

cublite wrote:So how deep was the snow do you think? More than a foot?

Pat

I'd say from looking at the photo, about 15 to 18 inches. Maybe a little more. My reasoning behind that SWAG, is my knees are 18 inches from the floor to the bottom of my knee cap, and the guys in the picture look to be knee deep.

However Chemult (North about 15 miles) and Chiloquen (South about 40 miles) show they have 36 and 60 inches of snow respectively. So it could be more.

See ya, Bub

And EVERYONES insurance cost goes up!

Every "accident" affects all of us.

Which bring up the question: What mission was so important that made landing in a foot of snow necessary?

Furthermore, how many children needing medicine is required before a pilot would willfully attempt a water flotation transition landing?

tgiencke wrote:Ok I'll ask the question...

What is the most snow he could have landed & taken off on?

I think I've read (and verified with actual flying) a tricycle geared plane can work off a snow covered hard surface if the snow is < 1/3 the tire's hieght. That is the fluffy kind of snow; not crusted or slushy.

With 6x6.00 tires (the biggest that can fit on my Musketeer ) I have flown off 5" of snow. And I've flown off 4" in a Tomahawk (not recommended because of the t-tail.)

-Todd Giencke

I have 6.00x6 mains on my 150, And I personally don't land on white. There's just no way to know from the air how deep it is. Even on packed, maintained strips it's very hard to spot drifts before it's too late. And it's sometimes even hard to tell where the packed portion ends and the soft gotcha stuff starts. Next time you're tempted to land on a white runway with standard tires (I'm sure 31" bushwheels can land in a lot of snow), ask yourself if it's worth doing the above to your plane?

Phil

Tough crowd...
Everyone starts somewhere, and everyone makes mistakes. Everyone here has, at some and probably many points in their life, been just as ignorant, stupid and lax as the pilot of the featured 172. Whether we suffered the same consequences has a hell of a lot more to do with luck and circumstance than any personal virtue.

mtv wrote:There is an old story around Alaska that the Inuit people have dozens of words for "snow".

What a crock that legend is. Call an Eskimo in a native village and ask for a weather report sometime when you have to fly there. You'll be lucky to get, "I dunno, it's foggy." The new generation doesn't know, and doesn't care.

Gump

John,
I realized after the fact, when you were using the loader to cut me a ramp to slide down off the ski strip, the view from the cockpit would've made a nice pic to post here.
The north half of the strip was great. When I landed to the north, I was just skimming along and didn't cut the power and settle in until the last few hundred feet. When I was taking off to the south, I decided to pack some tracks. Luckily I was going sort of slow when I hit the ruts around the half way or more point. As you know, it was late and the light was really flat with fluffy new snow on the ground so didn't see anything coming until impact. The ice ridges beneath left my G meter at +3.5 and -0.5 (normal landing for me). Someone must've pulled off the runway with a vehicle early in the season? Anyway, would advise landing on the north half.

Hammer,

Nope, the point is, this guy screwed the pooch for all of us in terms of the continued availability of rental aircraft, insurance costs, etc. I seriously doubt there could have been any valid reason for landing there, and I would BET that the owner of that aircraft has some specific policies on where the airplane can and can not be landed. Hopefully, if that is the case, the owner can come after this guy.

You're right--we all make mistakes at times. This isn't a mistake, though, this is pure arrogant ignorance. If he wanted to do this with HIS OWN aircraft, I'd say, well--he's increased our insurance some, and made us all look bad to every driver that drove by there. But, this was with someone else's airplane. That goes beyond stupid.

Gump,

Agreed on the younger breed, for sure. That said, two of the best wildlife survey guys I've ever put in the back seat for wolf tracking were Natives, and both those guys really knew their stuff. I learned a lot from those guys.

MTV

mtv wrote:Gump,

Agreed on the younger breed, for sure. That said, two of the best wildlife survey guys I've ever put in the back seat for wolf tracking were Natives, and both those guys really knew their stuff. I learned a lot from those guys.

MTV

There's still a few of the elders left who are walking, talking encylopedias of weather and survival skill knowledge, and it seems even fewer of the younger generation who are willing to learn. The rest are in a world of hurt from booze and drugs. But, some of the best pilots up there are young native kids.

Gump

If he was low time, he shouldn't have been trying it. If he was high time he should have known better. My guess is he was low time in the fact that he said he didn't know there was snow. The highway which is apparently right beside the strip likely had good snowbanks along it as an indicator. The white stuff would be a good indicator as well. Regardless, he failed his soft feild attempt. There'll likely be a lot more damage by the time it's back on it's feet and two passengers that will be finding a new friend to fly with.