Hey guys, I finished putting together a fuel tank for the back of my pickup. Now does anybody know what gas stations in the Caldwell, ID area would be the best to get pump gas from that does not have Ethenol in it?

So far, I had found that Teroso does not put Ethenol in any of it gas. Can anyone elaborate on this information? There happens to be a Teroso around the corner from my house here in Emmett.

I called Sams Club in Nampa. Right now they do not put Ethenol in there gas, but they will by the end of Oct . Costco also does not put Ethenol in there fuel as of right now.

And what grade would my fellow BCPers reccomend for my 58 182? The STC sticker on my plane say's minimum 87 octane pump gas. Be a no brianer to go with that.

Thanks in advance!

58Skylane wrote:>...
So far, I had found that Teroso does not put Ethenol in any of it gas. Can anyone elaborate on this information? There happens to be a Teroso around the corner from my house here in Emmett.

I called Sams Club in Nampa. Right now they do not put Ethenol in there gas, but they will by the end of Oct . Costco also does not put Ethenol in there fuel as of right now.

Get it while you can, but always test it! Idaho does not have a mandatory ethanol law but is subject to the federal ethanol mandate, EISA 2007 and all of your pump gas will have ethanol in it by the end of next year. Since you have no mandatory law, there are no exemptions for aircraft which all of the mandatory E10 law states have, all six of them. EISA 2007 has no exemptions nor any requirement for pump labeling, so the distributors can deliver gas with ethanol in it without telling you. I urge you to start state legislative action to prohibit the blending of ethanol into premium unleaded and demand that pumps be accurately labeled. I have just posted a thread in the Regulations, Laws, and Call to Action section on a mogas program proposal that outlines what needs to be done.

And what grade would my fellow BCPers reccomend for my 58 182? The STC sticker on my plane say's minimum 87 octane pump gas. Be a no brianer to go with that.

Go with it while you can, you can always use premium unleaded if you can't get regular. The compression of your engine is so low that regular 87 AKI works just fine. I used it in my Cont O-300D while I could here in Oregon, but now all I can get is premium unleaded and only at one station in the area I live in, central Oregon.

Here in MN MOST of the pumps have premium that is non-oxygenated (no ethanol) I think this was mandated or not sure if it was a volunteer thing. MN has had ethanol in its gas for many years. The funny thing is, some pumps are marked as such and some are not so a guy has to check around. The price is usually half-way between 100LL and regular unleaded, so a guy doesn't save alot but it does count up. I burn it nearly exclusively in both my planes, the old Continentals and Lycomings seem to perfer it. I know my O-300 in the 172 HATES 100LL. It will lead up the plugs in no time when I run straight 100LL.

WWhunter wrote:Here in MN MOST of the pumps have premium that is non-oxygenated (no ethanol) I think this was mandated or not sure if it was a volunteer thing. MN has had ethanol in its gas for many years. The funny thing is, some pumps are marked as such and some are not so a guy has to check around. ...

It is mandated in your law:
"(b) The nonoxygenated gasoline must be unleaded premium grade as defined in section 239.751, subdivision 4.
(c) No more than one storage tank on the premises of the retail gasoline station may be used for storage of the nonoxygenated gasoline offered for sale, sold, or dispensed by the station.
(d) The pump stands must be posted with a permanent notice stating: "NONOXYGENATED GASOLINE. FOR USE IN COLLECTOR VEHICLES OR VEHICLES ELIGIBLE TO BE LICENSED AS COLLECTOR VEHICLES, OFF-ROAD VEHICLES, MOTORCYCLES, BOATS, SNOWMOBILES, OR SMALL ENGINES ONLY.""

The law clearly requires the pumps to be labeled.

Airports and marinas are also exempted from the ethanol mandate.

Minnesota has the oldest mandatory E10 law in the country. Minnesota wisely included the right exemptions to protect users that cannot use ethanol blended gasoline. It is strange that some states that later passed mandatory ethanol blending laws either weren't aware of the exemptions or didn't care, Hawaii, Oregon and Washington being the ones, and have wreaked economic damage in their states.

Be advised that it also has a new law pushing the ethanol blending requirement to E20 if by August 30, 2013 if at least 20% of the gasoline sold in Minnesota, by volume, is not ethenol (which means that you have a heck of a lot of E85 flex fuel vehicles actually using E85) and the EPA grants federal approval E20 as gasoline by December 31, 2010. This EPA approval hinges on all of the new car manufacturers granting warranty protection for the use of E20 but I am not sure how hard they are working on this considering the economic times.

N1593Y,

Well, it is obvious that you surely know more than I do!! I had thought MN was the first state to require this but since I wasn't 100% sure I wasn't going to say so.
That really sucks about getting more ethanol in the gas though. I guess I am sort of on the fence with the issue. I don't see a big problem with it as far as auto use goes. The only problem I have is vehicles that set for anytime sure have carb problems.
Good luck in your quest for mandating non-ethanol in premium for your state.
WW

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180Marty wrote:I always thought aged whiskey was supposed to be better than fresh. Ask yourself this---is it the ethanol breaking down or the gasoline components changing when gums and varnish happen. I'd bet it's the gasoline molecules.

P.S. There'd be no need to denature ethanol if everybody was like me--I don't like hard liquor.

Marty, I'll go with you on the gas breaking down. The ethanol will combine with moisture. So the longer it sets the more likely it will find moisture.

My other complaint with alcohol mix is the power per gallon is lower, so we burn more to go the same distance as a gallon of gas. The fuel taxes are per gallon so I pay more, I don't like that.

I have 87 UL no ethanol for my airplane. 87 is crap gas but when I put it in my jeep or motorcycle I get close to 10 percent better mileage. I go from 40 to 45 on the Goldwing and 14 to 17 on the Jeep.

And they have a noticeable power increase. I have a big hill to climb on the way home. The Jeep with a 4 banger will pull the hill in 3rd on clear 87. It won't do it on the 10 percent ethanol.

On the other hand, if my Jeep had a purpose built engine to run on alcohol like the race vehicles I watch, and ethanol was $2.00 a gallon COUNT ME IN!!!!

Cheers...Rob

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This thread is like deja vu all over again...

How much longer do you think we can get clear 87 in Oregon? Also how much longer do you think non eth will be available in Delle, UT?

Tim

qmdv wrote:How much longer do you think we can get clear 87 in Oregon? Also how much longer do you think non eth will be available in Delle, UT?

Tim

Good question, Tim. I hope at least long enough to justify me spending $600.00 on a tank, pump, and filter for my pickup. If I can get non eth till atleast the end of 09, I should make out ok. I guess I should have done more homework on this fuel issue.

Good question, Tim. I hope at least long enough to justify me spending $600.00 on a tank, pump, and filter for my pickup. If I can get non eth till atleast the end of 09, I should make out ok. I guess I should have done more homework on this fuel issue.

I put a fueling trailer together for about that cost. I bought a refurb'd 55 gallon oil drum from the local wholesale oil/fuel distributor (only $22), a 1350 lb. useful load trailer kit from Harbor Freight, and a refurb'd GPI pump, filter and nozzle from JPI Industries. An 18' hose works well. I park the trailer dead ahead of the spinner and the hose is long enough to reach each tank.

Oh, power for the rig comes from a car battery in a battery case, screwed to the trailer deck. Clear gas is still available locally at a mom & pop type of gas station, not associated with the mega-mart gas/chips/jerkey/latte' stores. They intend to only sell pure gas for as long as it is possible, and legal, to do so.

qmdv wrote:How much longer do you think we can get clear 87 in Oregon? Also how much longer do you think non eth will be available in Delle, UT?

Tim

The law in Oregon says we can use it in a lot of applications. They blend the ethanol in at the local bulk plant. So as long as the feed stock comes non blended we will be able to get it.

Will all gas come to Oregon in the future as gasohol that is the 64000 dollar question. If you know, let me know.

Were good for now. I'm headed out today to burn some.

Cheers...Rob

58skylane, I would say check with some of your local distributors, not retailers. I go through my Pacific Pride company. The people who sell to farms and such. That's who to talk to.

The problem is the distributors have to sell enough of the clear gas to warrant the cost of putting in a 10000 gallon tank. When my PP dealer got enough request he said I can make money doing this.

I don't know what the Idaho law says. There is a lot of info at the EAA site on this. You might look there.

Cheers...Rob

qmdv wrote:How much longer do you think we can get clear 87 in Oregon? ...

There is no guarantee, but I wouldn't count on it much longer. I talked to a fellow at one of the Portland terminals and he said that all of the blending product coming down the Olympic pipeline is 84 AKI suboctane for ethanol blending, but they are still getting ships in with 87 AKI and they do not have anywhere to put it to keep it separate, so they just mix it together.

Just to illustrate how absurd the idea is that gasoline pricing is subject to the "law of supply and demand", he said they are very low on gasoline supply, it goes out as fast or faster than it comes in, and gasoline prices are still dropping in Oregon.

N1593Y wrote

but they are still getting ships in with 87 AKI and they do not have anywhere to put it to keep it separate, so they just mix it together.

You guys will have to line up a tanker truck, meet the ship as it off loads and then coordinate an 8500 gallon delivery to all of your airport tanks.

Just to illustrate how absurd the idea is that gasoline pricing is subject to the "law of supply and demand", he said they are very low on gasoline supply, it goes out as fast or faster than it comes in, and gasoline prices are still dropping in Oregon.

That's why I try to use fuel that I produce instead of relying on the oil company.

N1593Y, Since you seem to be able to get info from the oil people, could you ask what happened to the components of gasoline that they're using to make 84AKI that couldn't be used before when making 87. Also, how many more gallons can they pass off as gasoline from a barrel of crude now(84) vs. before(87). I assume they are getting more gasoline from a barrel since 84 qualifies as gasoline so you'll have to ask yourself, does that make gas more expensive or cheaper.
Thanks Marty

Colville Oil in Medford got there last batch of clear in Reno, NV. They have it set up in a big tank now. It looks like they are serious about.

Hey akroguy, how do you you refurb a 55 gal drum. Can of spray paint I guess. Problem with a 55 gal drum is that the 2" IPS female thread is below the rim of the drum. If pump not properly sealed and you get a little rain, then guess what.

Tim

180Marty wrote:N1593Y, Since you seem to be able to get info from the oil people, could you ask what happened to the components of gasoline that they're using to make 84AKI that couldn't be used before when making 87. Also, how many more gallons can they pass off as gasoline from a barrel of crude now(84) vs. before(87). I assume they are getting more gasoline from a barrel since 84 qualifies as gasoline so you'll have to ask yourself, does that make gas more expensive or cheaper.
Thanks Marty

Having worked in a refinery for about five years as a pumper, loading rack operator, a boiler fireman, and stillman all of the gasoline products that come from a refinery are a blend of products that that individual refinery makes. They are blended for initial boiling point, end point, vapor pressure, and octane rateing. This will determine how the gasoline will perform in the type of engine is used to burn it. Octane rateing is not necessarily how much power you get from the fuel buit the resisstance to knock (predetonation). The high end point has more to do with the power derived from the mixture. This is accomplished by cracking the gasoline molecules to produce multibond products like high severity platformate gasoline. The addition of Tetraethyl Lead (100LL) raises the octane rateing so the fuel will not knock at higher stress levels (higher compression).
In the refinery I worked in about 65% of the crude oil was made into gasoline. Other product were #2 fuel, diesel fuel, kerosene, propane, butane, #6 turbine fuel, leaded regular, leaded high test, unleaded gasoline and tar.
HC

hicountry wrote:In the refinery I worked in about 65% of the crude oil was made into gasoline. Other product were #2 fuel, diesel fuel, kerosene, propane, butane, #6 turbine fuel, leaded regular, leaded high test, unleaded gasoline and tar.
HC

I'm thinking that some of that tar, along with some feathers, should be used to cover the politicians that are mandating the use of ethanol.

bumper