highcountry, Thanks for the reply. I sorta understand the cracking of molecules and blending. Do you think that more product that qualifies as gasoline is coming out of the refinery now that 84AKI is considered OK vs. before when 87 was the minimum octane? Maybe just less energy used to crack some molecules?

180Marty wrote:N1593Y, Since you seem to be able to get info from the oil people, could you ask what happened to the components of gasoline that they're using to make 84AKI that couldn't be used before when making 87. Also, how many more gallons can they pass off as gasoline from a barrel of crude now(84) vs. before(87). I assume they are getting more gasoline from a barrel since 84 qualifies as gasoline so you'll have to ask yourself, does that make gas more expensive or cheaper.
Thanks Marty

I have been led to believe that you end up with slightly more gasoline product by producing a lower AKI result. Looks like there are people more knowledgeable about refinery operation here, perhaps they can answer the question exactly. I would assume that 84 AKI would cost the refinery less to produce otherwise why would premium gasoline be more expensive than regular gasoline. But just because the refinery could save a few pennies per gallon on the production cost of a gallon of 84 AKI regular doesn't mean that savings will be passed along to the consumer, my guess it is just pocketed because the consumer doesn't know squat about suboctane gasoline production that is used to make E10. Clearly nothing has been passed along to the Oregon consumers since E10 spread across our entire state because our enlightened legislature mandated it. Our gasoline costs more than Washington's and is within 2 cents of Montana's, sometimes more, sometimes less (MT has no ethanol law), same with Idaho another non ethanol state.
Your welcome, Dean

180Marty wrote:highcountry, Thanks for the reply. I sorta understand the cracking of molecules and blending. Do you think that more product that qualifies as gasoline is coming out of the refinery now that 84AKI is considered OK vs. before when 87 was the minimum octane? Maybe just less energy used to crack some molecules?

Without getting too specific on any certain fuel (gasoline or diesel) the more precisely the end product is refined, the more it takes to refine it. Used to be car or tractor gas was a product straight from crude oil by simple distilation (heat it up...the light stuff comes off first, the heavier stuff comes off with more heat). Drive off the light ends (straight run gasoline) and then the oils come off of crude ( zero gas oil, kerosene, #1 fuel oiletc.) Cracking the products from crude oil involve high heat in the presence of a catylist to produce multibonded carbon-hydrogen molecules that produce a more pure product that is used to blend the gasoline or diesel mixture as stated before. The gasoline (straight run) that is driven off by simple distilation was cheap to produce but was VERY unstable in a high compression engine...ie a Model T was maybe a 5 or 6 to one compression ratio whereas by O-360 is a 10 to one ratio.
Diesel fuel is rated differently that gasoline...it is measured a a cetane value. This is truly a measure of potential power you can get from the fuel.
Diesel fuel and #2 used to made from mostly distilled crude. Crude oil is not a consistant product that comes out of the ground, therefore what you can make from it varies greatly. Some parts of the world produce a very light crude while other areas produce a heavey crude with lots of BS&W ( BullShit&Water). The EPA can be blamed for the fact that now most fuels that we use are more finely proceded hence cost more to produce. Everyone that I talk to about the NEW diesel fuel says they do not get the power and milage they used to. This is due in part that the old diesel was made up of less refined product but heavier whereas the NEW diesel is a more refined product and is a much more stable fuel and there is less poluting.
In essence...the more precise the fuel...the more it is going to cost. The lighter the crude used, the more light fuels can be made of it. Also gasoline can be made from heavy oils and tars....they just need to be cracked harder...more expense.
I have not been in this business for some time and I know this is an industry that changes all of the time.
HC

The one thing I forgot to mention was marketing. Of cource there is the transportation cost to get the crude to the refiner, the refining costs, the transprotation cost from refinery to the distributor and/or the cost to the retail outlet. The market value of the product and the way it is marketed can make a whole lot of difference in how much the consumer pays for it...the more hands on the product the more it is going to cost. You may be near a pipeline terminal or refinery but sometimes that seems to have nothing to do with the pump cost. I was once told that the transportation cost in our area was based on the fuel cost and transportation cost out of Oklahoma City even though the refinery was in western Nebraska and the crude came down a pipeline from Wyoming. A little of the crude came from wells in eastern WY and western Nebraska.
I don't think the petroleum people are going to tell you their business. They are in businees to make money and sometimes supply and demand in this business don't make much sense to the consumer.
HC
PS: when I worked at the refinery I was told not to tell ANYONE what or how much were in or tanks

qmdv wrote:Colville Oil in Medford got there last batch of clear in Reno, NV. They have it set up in a big tank now. It looks like they are serious about.

Hey akroguy, how do you you refurb a 55 gal drum. Can of spray paint I guess. Problem with a 55 gal drum is that the 2" IPS female thread is below the rim of the drum. If pump not properly sealed and you get a little rain, then guess what.

Tim

The gas trailer is kept inside the hangar, usually empty as I use it to transfer fuel from gas station, to plane. 55 gallon drum=55 gallon plane (with some left over for the lawn tractor and other tools of destruction). The pump seals into the 2" bung with pipe tape on the threads. No leaks at all. The drums are solvent cleaned and repainted in yellow, red or blue. Quite spiffy.

FYI, just got another load of e0 mogas from my local Shell
station in Covington, WA (tested it prior to filling my pickup
truck bed-mounted tank). $1.95/gallon (yahoo....!).

1954C180 wrote:FYI, just got another load of e0 mogas from my local Shell
station in Covington, WA (tested it prior to filling my pickup
truck bed-mounted tank). $1.95/gallon (yahoo....!).

I have read somewhere you get a test tube and put a small amount of water in it and mark the level. Then add the gas and shake. let sit and read the water level. If the water level is lower then the ethanol has combined with some of the water. If the water level is the same the gas contains no ethanol. Is this it? Any refinements to this proceedure?

Thanks
45Romeo

See:

http://autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/ethanoltest.html

I love mogas. under $2.00 AND 100ll is still $4.40 at my airport. 100LL is such a rip right now. 2 weeks ago I flew from NW Oregon to socal, everywhere I wanted to go it was over 4 bucks. It should be no more than 1 dollar higher than mogas.

There I feel better now.

Rob

RobBurson wrote:I love mogas. under $2.00 AND 100ll is still $4.40 at my airport. 100LL is such a rip right now. 2 weeks ago I flew from NW Oregon to socal, everywhere I wanted to go it was over 4 bucks. It should be no more than 1 dollar higher than mogas.

There I feel better now.

Rob

So if $4.40 for 100LL at your airport is "such a rip" then what should I call $5.21 100LL at my local airport.

Obscene. Ridiculous. Bu11$h1t comes to mind.

100LL was $5.65 a gal at KHTH today....

I lugged 5 gallon cans from the mini-mart at @ $2.09 instead.

Gump

RobBurson wrote:I love mogas. under $2.00 AND 100ll is still $4.40 at my airport. 100LL is such a rip right now. 2 weeks ago I flew from NW Oregon to socal, everywhere I wanted to go it was over 4 bucks. It should be no more than 1 dollar higher than mogas.

There I feel better now.

Rob

I'll agree!! I don't care what the excuses ("sitting on expensive fuel from the previous load") some of these FBO's will come up with. I think it's a rip, too!!

The fuel I'm putting in my plane is $1.819 and in Sioux City the TV news just flashed a sign showing $1.599 there. You guys out West should group up and buy a RBOB contract on the NYMEX if it drops some more. It could be your hedge against a possible increase in the future. Maybe Zane could be in charge of the kitty.

Wonder how many other states have a similar provision in the ethanol blending law(s)?

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2008/11/25/plummeting-gas-prices-make-ethanol-blends-unattractive-retailers

SixTwoLeemer wrote:So if $4.40 for 100LL at your airport is "such a rip" then what should I call $5.21 100LL at my local airport?

Fly-way robbery?

Benton 30nov08