I just bought my first airplane in November, 1946 C120, it was definitely a learning experience and I'm still learning more mistakes I made every day. I don't think the buyer was shady, but there are definitely things I wish I knew to check or ask about.

I started looking in June and I didn't finally pull the trigger until November. It takes a long time to sift through ads, talk to sellers, etc. It will drive you crazy but browse the ads daily. Especially if you're looking for a more popular airplane, things pop up and disappear in a matter of hours sometimes, if you stay on top of it you'll have a better chance of getting a good deal.

Someone mentioned staying local, I didn't do that, but I could have definitely avoided a lot of headaches had I done that. There is a significant amount of paperwork involved, and many things need to fall into place, trying to do it all in one visit is suicide. The last thing you want to do is pressure yourself to "buy now" because you traveled all this distance.

Once you've identified an airplane you like find an A&P/IA who is familiar with that type and pay them to review the logbooks. A lot can be learned from what's in the books, or in my case, missing from the books. Many people expect to have complete logs from day 1. While that's great if you do, realize 90% of that is irrelevant to the airplane's current condition. Mine was completely restored 3 years prior, the seller had detailed photos of the entire process, this put me at ease with what was "missing" in the books. If the logbooks clear move forward with an inspection.

I made the mistake of having the seller's IA do the inspection. He signed it off as an annual, and did it for free. Huge bonus but also leaves the room to miss many things. I've had a few different people look at the plane since I bought and and they have identified issues here and there that I'll need to correct, it's been frustrating, but I'm trying to maintain a positive attitude. In the end it's a 72 year old airplane that WILL have issues. Nearly every "new to you" airplane will have things that need to be fixed or changed. I would budget at least $3k-$5k in possible repairs in the first year. If you don't end up spending it then great.

I got my insurance setup ahead of time. I'm a new, low hour pilot and I'm paying ~$900/yr through AOPA. This allowed me to call them up before the sale and tell them to activate it, without any fuss or surprises.

When it comes down to negotiating, don't be afraid to talk the seller down. Identify what issues you have the the airplane, and how much they'll cost you to fix. They may not be issues for the current owner, but he should understand your logic. Ex I bought an airplane without Mode C. It wasn't an issue for the seller since he lived in a remote area and didn't need it, but I fly out of a Class C airport adjacent to a Class B. It was a requirement for me and the seller would have lost the sale had we not made an adjustment for that.

If this is your first purchase you'll likely be extremely nervous before you say yes. This was the single most expensive item I've ever purchased, and I was horrified I'd be buying a money pit. But once I finally committed I felt a sense of relief and excitement. Yes I've had issues since I bought it. And yes I've had to spend more than I would have liked fixing things. But at the end of the day there is NOTHING like owning your own airplane and the satisfaction you get from it. I've enjoyed learning all the systems as I make repairs. If you understand it's part of the deal, you'll be much happier than if you stress out over every little thing.

Good Luck!

One more thing to add: Be patient. There is no rush. Deals will fall through, you'll go look at planes and their condition won't be anything like advertised. Don't be afraid to back out, you owe the seller nothing. Obviously, don't waste people's time, but at the end of the day it's your money and your decision, and if you decide you don't want to move forward don't feel pressured.

hamer wrote:...
When it comes down to negotiating, don't be afraid to talk the seller down. Identify what issues you have the the airplane, and how much they'll cost you to fix. They may not be issues for the current owner, but he should understand your logic. Ex I bought an airplane without Mode C. It wasn't an issue for the seller since he lived in a remote area and didn't need it, but I fly out of a Class C airport adjacent to a Class B. It was a requirement for me and the seller would have lost the sale had we not made an adjustment for that.
...

You got lucky with the seller! Everyone I know would listen to that argument and then politely ask you to stand aside while they close the hangar door, even if they had some wiggle room in the price.

By any logical assessment the asking price reflected the lack of Mode C, and if it had Mode C it would have been priced higher. To suggest that I should lower my price to accommodate upgrades would just make me not want to deal with that buyer. I mean, there's really no end to that argument...someone might need full glass and auto pilot, but that's not my problem.

Someone with a good airplane at a fair price (especially a classic) needn't worry about loosing a buyer, and I know several people (myself included) who have refused to make reasonable accommodations simply because a buyer rubbed them wrong and they didn't want that person to have their airplane.

Airplanes aren't like old furniture...people get attached to them, and pointing out what's wrong with someone's airplane will often make them less likely to bargain, not more.

Hammer’s got a great point. Personal relationships go a long ways.

I’m positive the only reasons I was allowed to buy my airplane was because the builder trusted me (he’s got skin in the game as the “manufacturer”), and he liked me.

We still talk today. When I get back to AK every other year I make it a point to visit him and his wife. He’s a really good person and I’m glad we met!

Along the lines of what Hammer said, don’t be a dick. When I sold my C180, I turned down an offer from a very prominent BCP skywagon poster because honestly I just didn’t want to deal with the crap that I would’ve had to go through with him - luckily he’s very open about how he handles deals so I had some forewarning. Also haggling on the phone before ever seeing the plane, and making claims about what it is/isn’t before seeing it rubs me the wrong way. I don’t like dealing with people who make the process a pain. It doesn’t have to be a pain.

Hammer wrote:
Airplanes aren't like old furniture...people get attached to them, and pointing out what's wrong with someone's airplane will often make them less likely to bargain, not more.

True, leading us back to the point that humans are emotional and irrational creatures. There's a fine line between being objective and bringing to the table findings from an objective evaluation -vs- insulting someone's ugly baby.

Many owners/sellers overvalue their birds because "it's a Skywagon!" or "it's a damned Super Cub!" It does make them solid investments but I think assuming the price already factors in lack of this, or poorly installed that, or horrifically and tastelessly modified everything is a little naive. We all want to believe we're sitting on a specimen but it's sometimes just a delusion of grandeur.

Also, some buyers just want to feel like they succeeded in getting something knocked off the price, even a little. Any wise seller should add some buffer to the price to accommodate this characteristic of human nature.

I100% agree! Especially those that want to haggle before even seeing the plane. In my experience, most of those people are nothing but tire kickers and time wasters. Generally a seller (not always) has taken everything wrong/missing with their plane when listing it for sale. Most will inflate the price a bit so as to allow wiggle/negotiating room, no different than car dealers or any other high dollar item.

Then there is the prospective buyer that is looking for the buy of the century. They want full glass IFR for the price of an old steam gauge equipted plane. ie: I saw a person posting a want ad on FB that I am surprised didn't get bombarded with insults. The ad says the buyer has a budget of $30K and is looking for a Lycoming powered 172 that is IFR and must have a Garmin 430, etc. Basically a unicorn right now as the market for cheap 172's has dwindled due to flight schools buying them up fairly quickly. I tried refinding the post but I am guessing it was removed. I suppose those planes are out there....but

Zzz wrote:

Hammer wrote:
Airplanes aren't like old furniture...people get attached to them, and pointing out what's wrong with someone's airplane will often make them less likely to bargain, not more.

True, leading us back to the point that humans are emotional and irrational creatures. There's a fine line between being objective and bringing to the table findings from an objective evaluation -vs- insulting someone's ugly baby.

Many owners/sellers overvalue their birds because "it's a Skywagon!" or "it's a damned Super Cub!" It does make them solid investments but I think assuming the price already factors in lack of this, or poorly installed that, or horrifically and tastelessly modified everything is a little naive. We all want to believe we're sitting on a specimen but it's sometimes just a delusion of grandeur.

Also, some buyers just want to feel like they succeeded in getting something knocked off the price, even a little. Any wise seller should add some buffer to the price to accommodate this characteristic of human nature.

True...but there's a big difference between not acknowledging actual defects and being asked to reduce the price because an airplane isn't equipped the way a certain buyer wants it to be. ADSB is a perfect example: I don't need it and don't want to pay for it...that the next buyer does is no reason for me to drop the price to allow them to install it and still stay at my asking price. If asked to do so I'll not be favorably inclined towards that buyer.

Inflating the asking price so you can come down is common, but it's a false economy. I paid full price for both my airplanes, and I'm pretty sure if I tried to get a lower price I would have queered the deals. Airplanes are unique...there generally aren't a thousand other identical models to choose from, they way there is with automobiles. When I found what I wanted I bought it, and a few hundred or a couple thousand dollars be damned. I'm happy to spend that money rather than not get what I wanted when I found it.

Hammer wrote:

hamer wrote:...
When it comes down to negotiating, don't be afraid to talk the seller down. Identify what issues you have the the airplane, and how much they'll cost you to fix. They may not be issues for the current owner, but he should understand your logic. Ex I bought an airplane without Mode C. It wasn't an issue for the seller since he lived in a remote area and didn't need it, but I fly out of a Class C airport adjacent to a Class B. It was a requirement for me and the seller would have lost the sale had we not made an adjustment for that.
...

You got lucky with the seller! Everyone I know would listen to that argument and then politely ask you to stand aside while they close the hangar door, even if they had some wiggle room in the price.

By any logical assessment the asking price reflected the lack of Mode C, and if it had Mode C it would have been priced higher. To suggest that I should lower my price to accommodate upgrades would just make me not want to deal with that buyer. I mean, there's really no end to that argument...someone might need full glass and auto pilot, but that's not my problem.

Someone with a good airplane at a fair price (especially a classic) needn't worry about loosing a buyer, and I know several people (myself included) who have refused to make reasonable accommodations simply because a buyer rubbed them wrong and they didn't want that person to have their airplane.

Airplanes aren't like old furniture...people get attached to them, and pointing out what's wrong with someone's airplane will often make them less likely to bargain, not more.

Well it was a little more complicated than I described, but I do agree with you, knit picking every detail is not a good thing to do. Especially when in my case the seller spent a lot of his own time restoring the airplane. The reason that was an issue I decided to pursue is because the airplane was on the higher end of the price scale for C120s and it was advertised as having mode c. When I got there he explained that the encoder had failed and he pulled it out. He said it would be a super easy fix, etc but for him, as an A&P, it might be, for me as a new airplane owner who can’t do that work myself, it isn’t. There were a few items like that that I had expected to be in order but weren’t. After traveling all the way up there I put my self in a tough spot to accept it as is. I used it as a bargaining point because I felt like the plane wasn’t accurately described and I thought it would be fair to make a price adjustment for it.

Since I bought the plane I’ve had a few other issues pop up (that I think a trained eye would have caught pre-buy) and I’ve spent more than double what I talked him down fixing issues. I don’t feel bad about how I handled it and I still have a good relationship with the seller, so I don’t think he feels wronged.

I do agree with your point (your ADSB example).

hamer wrote:…..Since I bought the plane I’ve had a few other issues pop up (that I think a trained eye would have caught pre-buy) and I’ve spent more than double what I talked him down fixing issues....

Don't lose any sleep over that.
I think there's always gonna some issues with a new-to-you airplane, even a very, very nice one.
Often maybe not airworthiness issues, just stuff you (or your IA) aren't happy with.
Often owners (and IA's) have pet peeves that the previous owner (and IA) don't have.
A friend of mine told me that it always takes a couple years and a couple annuals to "drive out the voodoo" on a new airplane.
And I agree with him.

hotrod180 wrote:

hamer wrote:…..Since I bought the plane I’ve had a few other issues pop up (that I think a trained eye would have caught pre-buy) and I’ve spent more than double what I talked him down fixing issues....

Don't lose any sleep over that.
I think there's always gonna some issues with a new-to-you airplane, even a very, very nice one.
Often maybe not airworthiness issues, just stuff you (or your IA) aren't happy with.
Often owners (and IA's) have pet peeves that the previous owner (and IA) don't have.
A friend of mine told me that it always takes a couple years and a couple annuals to "drive out the voodoo" on a new airplane.
And I agree with him.

Thanks, that's good advice. Someone recently told me the same thing at the airport. It's part of the deal when it comes to ownership and getting upset over it isn't going to help. I think I've come to peace with it.