All good advice given so far. BUT,
The last plane I bought had been I a prospective buyers hangar for two weeks. And he still had not made a decision! I told the owner, "all I need is 30 minutes to see the plane and log books". 35 minutes later I was counting out 100 dollar bills. If you snooze you loose! Another perspective

Also, at least for me, a hangar is more valuable than an airplane. It's a base of operations, the house where the toys live.

Secure a hangar before your purchase, if you're so inclined. Plenty of people don't mind tying down outside. And many Alaskans have never had a choice.

sierrasplitter wrote:

1. What questions to ask over the phone to save yourself unnecessary and fruitless travel?

Can you expand ?

It could be anything that is being assumed.

"Are you the actual owner, good sir? Oh, it's your brother in law's plane? He's deceased and it's owned by the estate which has 3 settlors?" Get ready for some uncertainty.

Ask for good, high res photos, including some photos of key pages in the logs.

Does it even have logs? Do they go all the way back to day 1?

Is the owner serious about selling? Ask what form of payment they prefer and if they're open to using an escrow service. If you want to use cash, some people like that. It might get you a discount. Never part with cash without the keys and a bill of sale in hand. Sometimes traveling by commercial air with lots of cash can get you in trouble.

How often has the airplane been flown in the last _ years? How much calendar time have the SMOH hours spanned? A friend is currently fixing an engine that was overhauled 4 years ago, then flown 4 hours, then sat 2 years, flown 4 more hours, sat two more years. It's a Lyc, so you can imagine. Rusty rods in this case.

"Will you agree to a first right of refusal? I have to buy a plane ticket. Don't sell it out from under me."

Following. Thanks for posting this thread so I didn't have to. Maybe another thread on "how to actually find your IA soulmate for life?" is needed.

"Right of First Refusal"

I am a little more direct it seems.
I always say, i am ready to leave now from south Texas to your location, will you give me your word th@t you will not sell the plane to anyone else before I get there and have a chance to look.it over? I've never been jilted, the problem with that is that it can close the door on negotiations. So it better be a deal! I have also bought planes sight unseen. The last one was a C182, the owner wanted someone to take over the hangar and pay off the loan balance at the bank. I agreed with no idea what I was getting into. The owner said the plane was complete. But had been sitting 5 years. The loan pay off at the bank was $1286 .00
I flew it home two days later. ???

Man! I didn't mean to break the internet Seriously a crazy amount of awesome information.

I did notice some mentions of sticking to just renting, especially for the amount I currently fly.... honestly I agree, the main issue is most rental options available in the area are very limited and very very restrictive on where you can go, what minimum length the runway has to be, minimum hours per day for over nighters, getting "bumped" to a totally different airframe if a student schedules the original aircraft requested, finally they are abused training aircraft that, well... I'd be surprised if the O-320s most of them have are actually performing at 150hp.

Out of curiosity...(maybe this is a totally different feed).

How many hours would be a "minimum amount of hours" to be flown monthly/annually be required to...

A. Avoid aircraft/engine damage
and/or
B. Make aircraft ownership "justified"


As a side-note... I did join a flying club about 2 years ago that has been a HUGE improvement for accessibility and affordability... that said I mentioned (albeit, tongue and cheek) we should look into a Sprotsman STOL leading edge or at least VGs for obviously amazing reasons. Unfortunately it was met with "nah, we'll probably sell this C172k and start looking for something with retractable gear soon." Much to my chagrin, I may be leaving this flying club sooner than later if that its future.

I have to admit that justifying ownership of an aircraft to the wife especially, is a tough chore.: ) I try to fly once a week and that puts about three hours per month on the plane. Then with a cross country about six times year. I end up 60 to 70 hours per year. And some years are less and some more. If I was renting it would be way way less! I would only rent for cross country type flying.

Since you have access to a plane, here is a purchasing tip that can sa'e you thousands. It's what I do when I'm looking for another plane to flip. First have your money available, in the bank and ready to go! No hiccups! Then crawl in your/rental plane and pick @n airport at random fly there, get out walk around and talk with everybody, do some hangar flying. During the course of the conversation ask "are there any planes for sale here on this airport"? You will often be surprised what you here. This is how I find sweet deals on airplanes!

Im a new owner, as wet behind the ears as it can get. I differ on the opinion of dont finance. I can deal with a significant repair if need be, but i wouldnt be able to do that and pay cash right now. I could in a year or two but realized one August morning if I dont get flying again soon my 16 year old will be off to college and we wont share any flying in his late childhood. At 1.99% home equity line, payments are very reasonable. I get the logic to wait to buy till you have cash plus a big chunk... For me there was a huge cost to wait, one I wasnt willing to pay...

Research the crap out of a specic make and model, not just its basic info but known gremlins and PIA ADs, what folks love about em, hate about em, etc.

I myself have never financed an aircraft. But I have sold a few the we're financed. The only problem with financing aside from the obvious, is that your negotiating position is some what compromised as the buyer. If I have to wait a week or two for the money,and have to jump through a bunch of hoops to make the deal (digital logs, ect) then I'm going to want list price. If the financing is taken care of "in advance" and all that required is a wire transfer, then that is great! When I buy a plane for a customer, I make sure that the money is in his account. Then I leverage to the seller such as: "if I wire Xdollars to your account right now , do we have a deal?"

buck_justice wrote:I myself have never financed an aircraft. But I have sold a few the we're financed. The only problem with financing aside from the obvious, is that your negotiating position is some what compromised as the buyer. If I have to wait a week or two for the money,and have to jump through a bunch of hoops to make the deal (digital logs, ect) then I'm going to want list price. If the financing is taken care of "in advance" and all that required is a wire transfer, then that is great! When I buy a plane for a customer, I make sure that the money is in his account. Then I leverage to the seller such as: "if I wire Xdollars to your account right now , do we have a deal?"

The Home Equity line took the fuss part out, to a seller i was a cold hard cash buyer...

Im going down the same money path as Mr. Buck Justice . Part of this purchase may be able to go to a Home Eq Loan. Or another option but I do agree you have to do the Money transaction on your end to show up with Money on your bank account.
For me ......first I have to figure out what plane I want. And what I mean is of course a tailwheel but stick or yoke ? Tandem or side by side ?
Im trying to fly all my prospective aircraft before I rule any specific model out. Purchase price is of course the biggest reason I wont consider something

On Renting- I belong to a Big Club Lots of Aircraft...a sea plane, twins, fast planes ect.......but when it comes to tailwheel only two planes and quite a few members flying them. And no off airport/dirt landings.
So the rental fleet is great for getting your skills developed but you cant go on a weekend outing off pavement

And Hanger ? No way Not only are they way out of my price range, you will be waiting a while before something opens up

One thing I've been discovering is that there are plenty of pilots learning backcountry work -- or doing it exclusively -- in nosewheel planes. Even without significant tire/wheel/strut modifications. Maybe they can't attack the most difficult strips out there, but for skill-building it seems to work just fine (not a time when you should probably be hitting the roughest strips anyway). And the insurance costs generally seem to be so much lower that it's potentially a free annual every year. So I quickly went from snubbing nosewheels and writing them off entirely to looking more exclusively at them. If I knew how to spot a great deal on a tailwheel when it came along, that would change the proposition of course, but apples to apples it seems a better deal for low-hour pilots.

To that point: Here's a video posted right on the front page of this very forum at the moment:

buck_justice wrote: I have also bought planes sight unseen. The last one was a C182, the owner wanted someone to take over the hangar and pay off the loan balance at the bank. I agreed with no idea what I was getting into. The owner said the plane was complete. But had been sitting 5 years. The loan pay off at the bank was $1286 .00
I flew it home two days later. ???

You have some great stories of success with buying airplanes. Do you have any where you felt you got pooched on the deal by gambling? Such stories may also be helpful to prospective buyers.

unipus wrote:One thing I've been discovering is that there are plenty of pilots learning backcountry work -- or doing it exclusively -- in nosewheel planes. Even without significant tire/wheel/strut modifications. Maybe they can't attack the most difficult strips out there, but for skill-building it seems to work just fine (not a time when you should probably be hitting the roughest strips anyway). And the insurance costs generally seem to be so much lower that it's potentially a free annual every year. So I quickly went from snubbing nosewheels and writing them off entirely to looking more exclusively at them. If I knew how to spot a great deal on a tailwheel when it came along, that would change the proposition of course, but apples to apples it seems a better deal for low-hour pilots.

,
Absolutely, I am frankly astonished by all the folks who turn up their noses at tricycle gear airplanes. There is tremendous value to be had there, and there are some very capable back country planes with tricycle gear.

There's a fellow posts on here occasionally that has showed up at some fly ins at backcountry strips in a Bonanza, with the resultant head shaking by the big tire, tailwheel brigade. But, he has the skills, and the airplane has a lot more backcountry capability than most pilots realize.

And, you're absolutely right.....cost to purchase and cost to insure will save you a LOT of $$$, all of which could be used to buy GASOLINE. And that will make you a more proficient pilot.

MTV

Zzz wrote: You have some great stories of success with buying airplanes. Do you have any where you felt you got pooched on the deal by gambling? Such stories may also be helpful to prospective buyers.

I bought a C170 which had an unreleased lien on it.
Lien was from like back in the late 50's, this was in 1997.
I didn't let it bother me. No repercussions in the 11 years I owned it.
The C180 I bought in 2014 had an unreleased lien on it from when the seller (a friend of mine) first bought it, back around 1997.
He assured me he had paid off the loan and that the bank had said they'd follow up.
Well, they didn't-- I suspect a lot of liens on record with FAA registration branch are due to this.
He gave me the name of the bank, etc, and I followed up on it.
The bank had been mergered with another one as I recall now, so it took some time and a number of phone calls & emails,
but eventually I managed to get a lien release sent to me which I then sent in to the FAA.

More recently, a friend of mine was selling a 182 and the day before he was to deliver it to Alaska, the buyer called-
yep, he discovered there was a lien.
From the 1960's.
But it was a deal-killer for him.
He said he found someone could could get it straightened out, for $2K.
That seemed excessive to me, for a problem that could probably be solved as easily as mine was,
esp since it would probably be a non-issue anyways (like on my 170),
but I think my friend agreed to split it with him just to get the deal done.

Aircraft buying "GOTCHAS"
Yea! When Zzz asked about this I had to think about it for a bit. I am the optimist I think most of the time. But after thinking about it, Wow! I have been Jilted quite a few times, mostly in my younger years though. My first bad deal was on a Dyke Delta project. "Enough Said". Then there was the Stinson 108 that I bought because I thought it was a really good deal. Turned out to have the Franklin engine with the light case! "Bought a plane that i didn't know much about, and did not do the research"

Bought a Cessna 150 that was bent. Yea, Bent! it actually flew pretty good as long as you had plenty of altitude. But when you pulled the nose up to level to zero the VSI the plane would only cruise about 85 mph. Lots of testing and rigging got the plane barely acceptable, but it was still a pooch!"Didn't perform a through enough flight test!

Bought a Cessna 172 out of a farmers field that had been running on auto fuel for quite a few years that was at TBO. The plane was not being flown regular, and spent a lot of time sitting. I thought I could repaint the plane and overhaul the engine. The plane had three or four layers of paint that took mega stripper and manhours to get down to bare metal, and the cylinders were trash! all six! The guy at the cylinder shop smiled big at me and said "you've been running car gas for a long time huh? "Nothing like working for free, and helping pay for someones airplane".
Liens was covered previously so I won't go down that path.
Tips for the average pilot wanting to buy a plane. They are pretty much covered on this forum, read them and study them and do your research on the front end, and don't pay to much for a plane just because its flashy and pretty! Oh by the way, It is my opinion that the Cessna 170 series aircraft is the best all around airplane ever produced. It does pretty much everything well!

Saw a sticky on shortwingpipers about requesting 337's for an aircraft before purchase inspection. I read about what it would contain and how you should compare major repairs in the logs to 337's listed for that aircraft
Sounds like the correct action . At 10 dollars per report I don't see why you wouldn't grab one for any prospective purchase.

Lien's are something many don't think of, nor look for. I didn't discover mine until I wrecked it 2 years after buying it. The insurance company found it and wouldn't pay the claim until it was resolved. It turned out to be straightforward paper trail, but only because of straight up owners and bankers that were still in business.

Spending way way way too much time looking for airplanes is actually a good thing. You start seeing trends, you start seeing the same airplane more than once, and you get a feel for condition and people by the way they post their ad. It's not everything, but it's a good start.

A word of advice. Take screenshots or save every ad that has any interest to you, in a pdf or photographic format. Links will disappear, but if you save it as text or photo on your computer, it will help.

A good example :

There's an experimental cub for sale currently online for $60k. I ran across it in an unusual location for advertising a solid flying airplane, and it looked vaguely familiar as there were some things about it that the builder had "done differently". (Some builders believe they have a better design then Piper did, but once done just devalues the a/c) So I inquired about it and the person listing the ad sent photos of the a/c along with a few photos of all sorts of purchasing receipts from AC Spruce and other supply houses laid out on the hangar floor. Another oddity to keep in mind. So I talked to a friend, who remembered it as well, and sure enough he and I had seen this same a/c for sale 6 months prior, by the builder, for parts without any paperwork or Airworthiness Certificate. For $25k.

I called the seller back and said, hey this aircraft was for sale earlier this year for a lot less, with no paperwork to absolve any liability, and more hours listed on the engine. The seller started back pedaling and said it wasn't his, they hadn't flown it yet as they had just put the wings back on, he was just listing it for the owner, and as far as he knew the builder wasn't available to talk to because he had dementia, and all he knows is the hours shown on the tachometer, and he'd have the owner call me.

I call the number on the original Ad I still had, which was the builder selling for parts, and left a message asking about it.
Meanwhile the current owner calls me back and we have a great discussion about flying all over the country, interspersed with little information about the airplane. I ask about the hours and he doesn't know. I suggest that he submitted for lost airworthiness certificate, and he said that the FAA first denied saying the aircraft was listed as "destroyed", so he and his buddy took photos of the complete airplane and all the receipts laid out onto floor (remember that photo?) and send them to the FAA. They then issued him a duplicate certificate....

Meanwhile the original builder had called back, so in returning his call he got right to the point. "Did I buy the airplane? Did the seller give me his contact info? There's paperwork??!! The buyer promised me wasn't going to do that!!!" "I submitted all paperwork to the FAA to be destroyed, not re-issused". Suddenly I felt caught between the builder that felt he had been lied to and cheated on, and the new owner that apparently was just flipping the aircraft for a cool 35-40k. I thanked him for his call, apologized for the situation, and walked away.

I'm sure they'll sell that AC, and it's probably not a bad homebuilt. Just an ugly situation that I wouldn't have known about if I hadn't been looking and keeping track.

Like someone mentioned, I like the idea of pre-buy's, even if buy someone way more experienced in looking at hundreds of similar models than you are. The whole point of an annual is to rectify issues. The point of a pre-buy inspection is to by a buyer's agent - Is this worth it? Is this good value based on what it needs, what it may need, or future resale. Certain engines have limited parts available and getting worse. Some AC are true unicorns. Others have 50hr AD limitations. Junk radios, seat track issues - what ever. And even if you are experienced, another set of eyes will see things you miss, even if they are right in front of you.

As with anything, a certain amount of trust is required between you and the seller, and a relationship has to exist that you are comfortable with. You want to buy an airplane from someone that hates to let it go, because they loved it. Buying one from someone that it kicking it out the door, usually means there's some work to do.

A further note about tri-gear airplanes:

The tricycle gear airplane will PERMIT the pilot to be less precise in his/her flying. The tailwheel forces the pilot to be more precise.

That doesn’t imply however, that the pilot should ACCEPT less than precise operation of the aircraft just because he/she can.

Learn to fly it well, regardless of the location of the little tire, and you’ll do well.

MTV