Mark:

I am the father of 4 and have a 12 yr old daughter who I would walk through fire for. It will be of no help, but I would echo the comments of others here. Man I am so sorry!!

This has been mentioned several times, but the sad aspect to this is there is such cheap technology and common sense actions that could have saved your daughter's life.

1. When you are talking the upgrades to the ELT's and FAA certified equipment, you are dealing with a large population of aircraft. Many of them cost between 15k and 35k. Spending $1,500 for such upgrades is difficult on anyone's pocketbook, especially when you consider that pilots are already spending more for everything because it is associated with aviation (i.e. more for gas, more for simple parts that would cost 1/10 of what you pay for car parts). However for a couple of hundred dollars, that aircraft could have had a PLB aboard that would have reduced guessing significantly. They are cheap and effective. I have one on my plane at all times.

2. The comments on flight plans are spot on. What also been accurately pointed out is that it is just common sense to let family / friends know where you are going (even if you are filing flight plans). There is a whole lot of information that can be transmitted to family / friends that doesn't go on the flight planning forms. On backcountry trips I outline for my wife precisely where I will be camping, what areas I will be flying over and when I will be back. She knows the flying community I fly with and if I don't turn up in time, they will be getting phone calls and they know where to look. The flying community often knows local Forest Service officials, County agents, etc. that they can communicate with as well. The point is that it is easy to do, costs nothing and can yield much information that isn't contained on the flight plan forms. I would also point out that texting has become a really valuable communication device for me. I routinely fly from Alb NM to Grand Junction, CO. That route takes me over some pretty high rocks. On the way, I normally text my wife or others on the ground my location and expected ETA. It is easy to do and quick. On that route (which is through some pretty remote territory) there are a number of spots that have good reception for my cell phone (even at 12,000 ft in elevation).

The point is that there are some sensible, easy and effective communication techniques that can be utilized, regardless of whether you use flight plans or not.

The common thread for both of these Mark is that they can both be done without legislation, mandates or great expense. I applaud your commitment to try and improve the situation and I would suggest that your story is a powerful one. I would strongly recommend that you put your story to paper and submit it to every aviation publication you can come up with (i.e. EAA, AOPA, Flying Magazine, Pilot Getaways, etc.) I have a contacts with the AOPA and Pilot Getaways magazines and would be happy to get you introduced once the story was completed. I would bet that the impact you could make with that effort would eclipse any legislative or administrative action that you might be able to bring forth. I also would bet that you have a lot of knowledgeable pilots on this site that would assist you in crafting that document.


God Bless you Mark. You and your family are in our prayers.

Regards, Larry

rw2 wrote:
Yes, they can.

You cant even beg them to. The waypoints need Identifiers to be included. They will not put them in. I still ask them to...they always decline. It didnt used to be this way.

lesuther wrote:

rw2 wrote:
Yes, they can.

You cant even beg them to. The waypoints need Identifiers to be included. They will not put them in. I still ask them to...they always decline. It didnt used to be this way.

Bizarre. Sounds like they need to be more consistent. The guy I talked to a couple hours ago responded "you mean lat/longs? sure we can definitely take those for your flight plan".

Shaysdad. You say no offense intended.(if people cannot think and do these things for themselves then another sot of prompting is needed) I am extremely offended! I have read all your posts and get a mixed message for what you are really after. Is it closure , help your fellow man, revenge , justice or a cash settlement ? I cried when I read about the accident . We have all lost loved ones or will lose one someday. Please get grief counseling and take time to heal.

To give you an idea of how ineffective VFR flight plans are, let's assume that your daughter's flight could have been made direct in a straight line. It's 445 miles from Fillmore to Gillette. In that airplane, that's just under 4 hours of flying, assuming no really unfavorable winds. If the pilot had filed a flight plan which said "Fillmore direct Gillette", with an estimated arrival time 4 hours after take off, that would not have told anyone an exact route, but local folks might have known the logical routes to dodge the mountains in the way.

But in any event, with the airplane going down only 11 miles (5 minutes) outside of Fillmore, there would have been no concerns raised officially until the pilot failed to close the flight plan 30 minutes after the estimated time of arrival. At that point, a telephone search would be instituted.

Typically the first call goes to someone at the airport of intended landing. If there's an airport manager, they'll get the first call. If not, then the FBO (fixed base operator, somewhat like the gas station for cars) gets called. If after about 15-20 minutes of looking, then there's a phone number that is supposed to be placed on the flight plan for either the pilot's destination or his home. They usually wait to call that as the last call, in order to avoid upsetting anyone.

So we're up to about 5 hours now, from the time of the crash. Then calls are made to airports along the route of flight, with the same delays while someone looks for the airplane.

Unless it's been changed since I was last involved, after the phone search hasn't accomplished anything, the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center, which is now at Tyndall AFB, FL, is contacted. That center then determines which "assets" to contact, once they are assured that there really is a problem. They're required to use federal assets first, which inland like in Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming, that is most likely to be the CAP. Local assets are only called if the federal assets aren't available.

You can see is that at a minimum, it'll be 6 or 7 hours before the AFRCC is even called, and then it takes time to marshal whatever "assets" are going to be used.

But without getting diverted again into the mistakes made by CAP, and assume for the sake of argument that the CAP is willing and able to do the SAR, that won't happen very quickly. CAPers, no matter how devoted, are not "on call" at the airport, ready to hop into the airplanes and go. The local mission commander would be contacted, then he/she would have to call the appropriate pilots and observers, and they would have to get to the airport, preflight the airplanes, preflight themselves (decide where to search, etc.). I'd be surprised if everyone could be rounded up within a couple of hours, and at least another hour would be spent getting ready to go.

So expecting any search to start sooner than 10 hours in your daughter's case, assuming that a flight plan had been filed, is expecting too much.

I think that's why you're seeing an antithesis to filing flight plans as a solution which might have helped. Most of us don't think so, and I'm willing to bet that most other experienced pilots would conclude similarly.

One other thing to keep in mind. Even the latest 406 ELTs aren't a guarantee. They do improve the chances of being located a lot, but nothing can be guaranteed. There are still going to be rare occasions in which they don't activate, or the force of the impact disconnects their antennas, etc. And PLBs (personal locator beacons) have to be manually activated, which for some models, isn't really obvious--and that assumes that someone knows where it is and is conscious enough to activate it.

If I were to recommend that you focus on anything, it would be on the arrogance displayed by the CAP in your case. That is something that could be addressed, and might have an impact. Secondarily, mandating 406 ELTs would be a huge step forward.

And again, my heart goes out to you--as everyone here who has said, who has kids or grandkids, it's hard to imagine your grief.

Cary

That is absurd. If you are offended that is not my intent. What justice can I receive that is equal to the death of my daughter? what revenge is there to have? do I want money? If I wanted money I could have taken it 6 months ago when the insurance offered it, I didn't take it. The answer is simple...My daughter is gone, she will not be back. But if this story gets out then maybe others can be saved. If you are offended sorry, but I bet it has caused you to pause and think. These are the things I am trying to achieve. I did say "if people cannot think and do it for themselves then another sort of prompting is needed"...this is a fact. Matt did not file a flight plan, did not have a PLB the ELT was old and virtually useless. So apparently he did not think and even some on here say my story has altered their preflight routine. I have repeated over and over again what my reasons were. Read the whole post not just key on parts that you find abrasive. Again if I offended you I apologize, but the lack of knowledge and the presence of any one of things we have been discussing would have saved my daughter. Frankly I have been extremely careful to convey my questions and feelings in a way that would not be offensive in any way. I have also stated this is all new to me and I am trying to learn and I am offended that you would insinuate revenge, justice or even money. I am trying to learn the value of a flight plan versus plb and elt and an awareness campaign. It is pretty simple really if you read it all and not concentrate on any one part. I figured the best way to learn about flying and the details is from the very people that love it the most...was I wrong?

Im not offended at all at the discussion. I think that mandatory flight plans are not destined to make a mark on the statistics. Other countries do mandate flight plans, and Im not so sure that a) they make a hoot of a difference for all the reasons discussed here, or b) that pilots really care one way or another (in canada, for example).

The real thing that could come out of this is the idea that there may have been serious, repeated, unaccountable lapses in judgment in CAP activities, and this needs to be acknowledged and addressed. If a 406 mandate improves safety, it won't be because of CAP errors like this, but in spite of them. Id like to see that fixed before we grant the exclusive right to tactical SAR activities to an organization like this, and certainly before people start thinking of making ineffective legislation like calling for mandatory vfr flight plans.

lesuther wrote:Im not offended at all at the discussion. I think that mandatory flight plans are not destined to make a mark on the statistics. Other countries do mandate flight plans, and Im not so sure that a) they make a hoot of a difference for all the reasons discussed here, or b) that pilots really care one way or another (in canada, for example)

Are we required to file flight plans in Canada?? I've never been informed of this.

ShysDad wrote: I figured the best way to learn about flying and the details is from the very people that love it the most...was I wrong?

Mark, are you interested in becoming a pilot or taking some flight training?

It would be one way to really understand some of these issues involved in your daughters death better, and it might answer some of your questions and offer you a different perspective as well. It's also something I think many here in the pilot community could and would help you with.

A1Skinner wrote:Are we required to file flight plans in Canada?? I've never been informed of this.

LOL. You are right of course...the only reason I had to up there was because I was flying from/to the US. I forgot. And you have to in the US as well transiting to/from abroad.

Had me worried for a second there. Haha. The regs say a flight plan or itinerary is required. I very rarely fike plans, just inform my wife or someone where im headed. I usually get distractdd looking at other things on the way. So I carry my SPOT 2 with tracking so she/they can watch my progress.

Cub271 i would be yes...anything i can do to understand this and develop ways to help in anyway

ShysDad wrote:That is absurd. If you are offended that is not my intent. ..... But if this story gets out then maybe others can be saved.

Blown56 is right on the money... The thing is, I and many others do not want to be "saved" by more regulations. It sounds like you are developing a vendetta against aircraft operations and you won't stop until you get some satisfaction. If you truly want to save people, then focus on the 50,000 + deaths each year in auto accidents. I bet you won't because you don't want to inconvenience your own driving with very low speed limits. I wish you would not try to make me and other pilots pay for your loss. I am not offended by your story, but I do take offense to your campaign. Accept what is done and move on... Get some counseling!

Wow blown56. That's your first post on this site?? Really!!!? Insensitive prick. He wouldn't be on here asking intelligent questions And being open minded towards learning if your statement was true. Unlike most knee jerk people that look to blame someone and sue, mark is passionately trying to do the right thing regardless of our opinions. Therefore the need for our constructive help In helping him. Or you can just fire off some ignorant statement from left field and convince him that most pilots are brain dead like yourself. Don't listen to that crap mark.
Keep asking. Keep inquiring. Keep an open mind.
Your wrong to mike182. Your not going to win treating this like your fighting against what someone feels is wrong. Education and understanding is what will open eyes. Not bashing and whining about someone doing it wrong.
Bring on the education. Bring on the wisdom guys. Mark seems intelligent enough to me to make a difference if armed with knowledge. He's not saying this is the way it is or else. He's asking and pleading for help. And unless you've lost a little girl, don't try act like you know what he's going through or no what he's looking for. I say again mark you've gone further than most by even opening this discussion and taking in all you can get. MOST here would love to help.

MikesT182T wrote:If you truly want to save people, then focus on the 50,000 + deaths each year in auto accidents. I bet you won't because you don't want to inconvenience your own driving with very low speed limits.

By citing auto accidents you cite an example where the death rate is less than a third of what it was in the 70's and that change is absolutely dominated by mandatory safety standards that the government put into place.

Whatever led you to this forum brought you to the correct venue for you question. But only if you are willing to accept the answer. By the very nature of backcountry flying we deal with the essential core issue of your concerns. Virtually every flight we take puts us outside the typical airport to airport flight characteristics. We fly in a general direction over inhospitable terrain and land on unimproved “strips” in the middle of nowhere. We are all acutely aware what risks we take should we have trouble along the way. There are multiple sections on this forum that discuss these issues. “Accident Analysis, Live to tell, Around the Campfire, all have multiple threads discussing the same issue. How do we keep ourselves and our passengers safe? There are pilots here with 60 plus years of experience as well as new students. As others have pointed out, we rarely agree on anything. However, the common message in post after post, page after page, is that we all agree on one point. A flight plan would most likely NOT have changed the outcome. Banging your head against the wall just to put a hole in it is a waste of your daughter’s memory. That some here will change their practice is a good thing. But that happens all the time as we discuss many issues. It should in no way be construed as a validation of your opinion that we need additional regulations. It is obvious that you do not grasp the complexities of a cross country flight.

If you must bang our head, then lobby for the continued active monitoring of all beacons. Not just the new more expensive ones. Lobby to break the stranglehold the CAP has over who should be allowed in a search area.

We all understand your grief and anger. But you can’t expect any of us to support more regulation in an already highly over regulated environment.

Ask yourself if you would honestly support the same requirements in your car. The same arguments can be applied that it might save lives. Fatal flight accidents are a small fraction of a percent in relation to automobile accidents. There are literally hundreds of government intrusions that could be forced on drivers that would save thousands of lives. More than another useless aviation regulation.
Sadly, accidents happen even to the best pilots. It's impossble to make sense of why. Just as it is impossible to regulate flying perfectly safe.

rw2 wrote:

MikesT182T wrote:If you truly want to save people, then focus on the 50,000 + deaths each year in auto accidents. I bet you won't because you don't want to inconvenience your own driving with very low speed limits.

By citing auto accidents you cite an example where the death rate is less than a third of what it was in the 70's and that change is absolutely dominated by mandatory safety standards that the government put into place.

True... but there are hundreds of additional regulations that could be added to lower that number further. When is enough, enough?
Would additional restrictions on the aviation community make significant reductions in fatalities?
You really can't compare the 70's transportation regulations to todays aviation regulations.

A1Skinner wrote:The regs say a flight plan or itinerary is required. I very rarely fike plans, just inform my wife or someone where im headed.

I recall from a discussion a while back that the definition of what constitutes the "required" VFR flight plan in Canada is pretty loose. Take this with a grain of salt, because my memory is fading, but I read that the simple fact of telling your wife or friend where you're going and when you plan to arrive suffices for a flight plan. It doesn't have to be filed with any official. If I'm wrong, Canucks, let me know so I'm not spreading bad info.

55wagon sorry for not explaining . My daughter Amber was killed by a unlicensed and uninsured illegal. The killer left the country rather than take responsibility for he death. So yes I know grief. I follow shaydads questions . It's part about legislation , and requiring , and a team of lawyers , and he not through with cap yet. So I just say what is the purpose.
Regards. Insensitive prick that I am

Really mike..have i once placed blame?...no i havnt..i have even said i dont want more rules...i have been asking questions to see how i could make thing safer. Its easy ro be an azz behind a keyboard..you wouldnt happen to be CAP would you? I am asking questions on how to make location of crash victims easier...i have not placed blame i jave asked for advice...dont attack me i have not attacked you or anyone
..if u wanna attack me then pm me your address we can meet and swap ideas buddy. I am even exploring the idea of pilots lessons? Does that sound like someone with a vendetta?...no it doesnt there is that ego we were talking about