Bender wrote:I'm not sure that I buy that it's easier to keep the tailwheel off of the ground with the flaps down unless you're speculating that maybe airflow is diverted by the flaps to the underside of the elevator which I also find hard to believe at our slow landing speeds. I'd be willing to bet that the airflow aft of flaps on most tailwheel aircraft goes over the top of the elevator but that's just a guess. Dumping the flaps puts more weight on the wheels which allows you to mash more brake which = shorter landings

Im not sure why having flaps down helps keep the tailwheel up, but it definitely does. On the Citabria if I dump the flaps on landing i have to brake quite hard to keep the tail up. If I have a long taxi, like the one from my strip to my house, I always leave the flaps down as it makes keeping the tail up quite easy.

Flaps cause extra lift aft of the center of gravity and pitch the nose down. If we slow to near stall (the airplane begins to shake and mush) before the desired touchdown point and then level the airplane by pushing forward on the stick, the elevator causes the angle of attack to go zero or negative. Close the throttle on touchdown, if not closed. This keeps the airplane on the ground firmly with or without flaps. If you have mechanical brakes (cable activated,) use them to your heart's content. They won't slow you much and you may break a pulley, but they also won't put you on your nose. If you have Clevelands, be careful. The design of an airplane is to fly. The best way to slow little airplanes down is before touching down. Wheels, brakes, skids, skis, and all that ground stuff is just to get by. The only exception is a Navy tailhook.

Like contactflying said, the center of lift is changed when the wing camber is altered by flaps being deployed. I don't think it has as much to do with airflow over the tail as just providing lift further aft of the fulcrum (wheels on ground.)

Bender, luckily you don't have to "buy" anything or rely on faith. Go out in the Pacer and do a wheel landing and try to hold the tail off the ground until it runs out of juice. Try with flaps up and down. Try retracting the flaps on rollout and feel the tail drop to the ground.

Agreed, Flaps in general do not do anything with the airflow that makes the tailwheel stay up, it is the change in the center of lift when applying flaps (during a landing) that helps lighten the tail. Even this is an over simplification, because different flap / wing designs act differently. A cub with heavily drooping ailerons will want to pitch the nose up on aileron droop, consequently applying droops and flaps together nets no appreciable difference in the tail weight.

Discussing this stuff is great to get the mind going and new techniques in your pocket, provided that

A) you keep an open mind, and
B) you understand that not all planes, pilots, nor missions are equivalent. Just because a person paints lines on the ground and repetitively comes up with a performance parameter, does not mean it is going to work for you, nor does it quantify that it won't.

This time last year we had a guest at our home strip. He stayed all winter long with the sole mission of winning the Valdez competition. He flew from dark till dark every day it didn't rain (it never rains here) He shot more take off and landings on my strip in that time frame than most people will in ten years. Very early on, as an outside observer I made a few comments on things that were subtle enough they could not be detected from the cockpit while flying. In reviewing this Frank set up one off instrumentation that was truly ingenious, coupled with markings and cameras everywhere. It became very clear that not all techniques could be used in a 'blanket statement' fashion, and some of the most subtle things made differences that when combined with others could make or break the day.

Of course Frank went on to win Valdez not in class but completely over all, not in a fire breathing O-375 powered uber cub, but in a simply wonderful J3, flown by a pilot with dedication and attention to the little stuff. IMHO That's what makes the difference... We can joke and poke and suggest that when a pilot discusses feel and technique that others don't have the time or patience to achieve, that it doesn't exist or that pilot is now comparing himself to a Jedi, but it is simple fact. Someone has to be Kirby Chambliss, Wayne Handley, and Frank Knapp. And the fact that the techniques that they hone are not perceptible to most of us mere mortals does not negate them...

If it works for you flap away, if doesn't, don't knock it, just move on...

You can view more about Frank here, it is a truly great story. Those of you that have spent time at my home strip will recognize the practice sessions ;

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=3081342584001

I've got plenty of experience with the navy tailhook. About to head out and get some more in a couple of weeks. I'll eat a little crow, I didn't consider the moment created by the flaps and how that might affect keeping the tailwheel off of the ground. In the Pacer, ever since I switched out the bungees a few months ago to 1x1080HD and 1x1280HD if I don't dump the flaps immediately (I'm always landing right at stall speed) I'll induce some "wheel hop" (sorry for the drag racing terminology) and greatly increase the distance it takes me to stop. With the old worn out 2x1080HD's it would stick to the ground like glue but I was always worried I was about to turn my plane into a sled. However, there shouldn't be any argument about dumping the flaps for short landings as long as it can be done safely. Every CFI I know, including myself, teach this technique for short field landings. More weight on the mains = more traction = more braking = shorter landings.

Bender wrote:I've got plenty of experience with the navy tailhook. About to head out and get some more in a couple of weeks. I'll eat a little crow, I didn't consider the moment created by the flaps and how that might affect keeping the tailwheel off of the ground. In the Pacer, ever since I switched out the bungees a few months ago to 1x1080HD and 1x1280HD if I don't dump the flaps immediately (I'm always landing right at stall speed) I'll induce some "wheel hop"

Wheel hop? Try making a conscious effort to set one wheel down first. remove one of the opposing forces and you remove one of the reactions. But... drop it in hard enough and you will do a one wheel hop.

Bender wrote:However, there shouldn't be any argument about dumping the flaps for short landings as long as it can be done safely. Every CFI I know, including myself, teach this technique for short field landings. More weight on the mains = more traction = more braking = shorter landings.

Careful with the blanket statement. Many aircraft will find greater advantage with the drag of the flaps, than the added weight of flap removal when properly slowed down on landing. Probably not the majority of the aircraft represented on this forum, but many none the less.

Take care, Rob

Trust me, that tail will drop if you quickly retract flaps while slow in two-point in a fully loaded 180. I wait to retract them until after the tail is on the ground, if at all.

Just to clarify, the "wheel hop" I'm referring to is caused by the brakes repeatedly locking up the wheels due to the reduced traction caused by the flaps not a bounced landing. Dump the flaps, more traction, no wheel hop. As for any blanket statement, there will always be exceptions in extreme cases but we have to have a standard for the 95% solution. All I'm saying is that the standard short field landing technique being taught is to raise the flaps on landing as long as it can be done safely. If someone has heard something different from a big name flight school then I'd sincerely be interested to hear about it. All standards are points from which to deviate based on pilot experience, environmental conditions, etc.

Rob wrote:Zzz can joke and poke and suggest that when a pilot discusses feel and technique that others don't have the time or patience to achieve, that it doesn't exist or that pilot is now comparing himself to a Jedi

I don't keep notes, and your posts are usually edited blank within 24 hours, so it's hard to forensically piece together the puzzle of your butthurtedness, but yes, I probably made fun of you for using some pipe smoke fueled poetry about zoom reserve and other self-penned terms. That doesn't mean I don't believe in a high level of flying acumen or tuned instinct among the experienced and practiced, just like any discipline whether long range shooting or supercross or laporoscopic surgery.

Larry, in my old 206, I would dump the flaps only on landing in short fields, and it did help me to stop shorter. Same in my old 170, so I say: if it works for you, do it.

But, I agree with some of the guys that suggest that if you need to dump them, then you're landing too fast. Fortunately, I have 3 great teachers that demand landing slowly: a Stearman, a Grumman AgCat, and an L4 Cub. None have flaps, so I don't have the problem you have. I just have no flaps to dump!

So, my suggestion is to learn to continually land as slowly as possible (without stalling it 2ft off the ground), doing the blindfolded practice until you can hit that lever up every time without looking, and use the "dump the flap technique" only for better braking AFTER you've landed as slowly as possible!

Happy flying my friend!

Bender wrote: If someone has heard something different from a big name flight school then I'd sincerely be interested to hear about it. All standards are points from which to deviate based on pilot experience, environmental conditions, etc.

I think you've made your own point. This is a question being asked by a trike pilot who operates in the jungle to a forum of pilots whose idea of the ultimate landing is on an off-airport unprepared surface. In a tailwheel aircraft, keeping the tailwheel up off rough ground is usually an objective. I'm not aware of any big name flight schools who cover that niche scenario. Actually I'm not aware of any big name flight schools at all, maybe Andover Flight Academy? These are some deviations made necessary by non standard conditions. Flight schools excel at standards, but this stuff is usually taught one-on-one by a seasoned old goat (I hope to be one someday.) The tailwheel stuff is kinda irrelevant to the OP, who's flying a trike. What's preferable for keeping the nosewheel off the ground?

This is a great discussion, and I don't think there's any downside to rehashing the reasons why one would retract or not retract flaps. I just watched some old Valdez video and some of those guys are retracting flaps and braking hard. A few of them have even gone up on their noses.

I will jump in on this specifically for the 206, dumping the flaps does not make you stop shorter.

Short field take off flap position in a 206 is 20 degrees meaning this is where you get some of your best lift at slow airspeeds. Now, take your flaps all the way down, put them up and count the time it takes, usually about 5-7 seconds. Meaning around 2-3 seconds are in the 20 degree range (best lift). Now if I dump my flaps at touch down or slightly before, the time when I need the most weight on my wheels my flaps are passing through the high lift range defeating the intended purpose.

Basically lifting the flaps makes a 206 float or keeps weight off your wheels, just land slow and keep the flaps all the way down so the drag can slow you down.

Headoutdaplane wrote:I will jump in on this specifically for the 206, dumping the flaps does not make you stop shorter.

Short field take off flap position in a 206 is 20 degrees meaning this is where you get some of your best lift at slow airspeeds. Now, take your flaps all the way down, put them up and count the time it takes, usually about 5-7 seconds. Meaning around 2-3 seconds are in the 20 degree range (best lift). Now if I dump my flaps at touch down or slightly before, the time when I need the most weight on my wheels my flaps are passing through the high lift range defeating the intended purpose.

Basically lifting the flaps makes a 206 float or keeps weight off your wheels, just land slow and keep the flaps all the way down so the drag can slow you down.

AMEN...

Leave the flaps down, keep the nose up in a high angle of attack position as you roll down the runway in the soft field conditions you have. I think thats what your asking Moto.

The idea of dumping flaps to have your wheels stick to the ground has never made sense to me except when learning to fly and landing at 60-70knts on the pavement the first couple hundred hours.

Short field landings and/or short and soft in a trike or tail wheel when done properly has you slow enough already that your not going to take off again. Those flaps actually add to the braking power as they are catching wind. Even more so in a trike as you keep that yoke in your lap, giving you a high angle of attack while feathering your breaks. You should be able to land that 182 or yours Moto with they way it is set up in 500' or less at sea level. Even less with all the wind you get. Keep the flaps down. The 3-5 seconds it takes for those electric flaps to go up you should be stopped in that time.

Uhh Ohh...Now you need to do a sudden go around because the jungle leopard just jump out in front of you. The flaps are down still giving you great lift for take off. (Yes that will create a discussion on full flap go arounds..I think that thread is already here and been beat up) but we all do it. Obviously this is something that you are not taught but I personally do often. With manuel flaps in the 180 it literally has you jumping off the ground as you pull the handle back but again thats another discussion.

Keep your flaps down moto and focus on your slow airspeed to not stall prior to touch down. Hit the numbers and roll to a stop. Then decide what your doing with your flaps for taxi or your next takeoff.

AKT

Zzz, certainly no butthurtedness on my part guaranteed I take everything I read on the internet with a grain of salt, information, tongue in cheek comments, insults, and accolades... all of it! As a general rule when I have deleted a post it has not been to to hurt feeling, it has been because in review of my writing and the direction of a thread it became clear that my post was irrelevant or a useless contribution. I am more than comfortable in my own skin and in my flying abilities and shortcomings

In the case above, I have edited my post to say we, rather than Zzz because the action of questioning 'feel' is something We all do at some point or another.

Bender, My apologies, based on your reference to bungee preload, I assumed your 'wheel hop' description was referring to bounce, I now understand it to be referring to a wing that is still producing lift. Which coincides with why your flap drop works. I have no idea why there is a correlation to your bungee preload. I will also add that as someone who has 'a few' hours in Naval aircraft, you have my respect and attention with your day job.

Take care, Rob

If your in a nose wheel aircraft this isn't an issue at all, but if your in a taildragger making wheel landings on rough strips than getting the flaps off as soon as possible is important. An easy rule to remember is "flaps up before brakes". If your doing a three point landing you can just roll out even if you still have full flaps, just remember to raise them before you add brakes, especially if your light. By the way, three point landings are very hard on your plane if your off airport! Plus, if you can master the wheel landing Off airport that makes you a cut above most other pilots, it takes real skill to do a wheel landing on uneven rough narrow and short fields. Good luck

Lift is good for flying, downforce is good for traction/stopping, just look at the back of a race car. The need to keep the tailwheel or nosewheel off of the ground would be a reason to deviate from the standard short field landing technique. You are going to sacrifice some distance in exchange for the structural integrity of your aircraft. However, you may need to risk the tail or nose wheel to avoid hitting the barbed wire fence in front of you
All of the posts I've made here are related to short field technique where the sole objective is to get an aircraft stopped in the shortest distance possible. If that is the case then the 95% solution is to raise the flaps on landing and jump on the brakes (even the airline guys do it via spoilers initially followed by flaps). Soft field (unimproved field) technique is obviously different and will result in longer landing roll out distance but your objective is to reduce the potential for damage to the aircraft vice land as short as possible. If you're landing on a rough and extremely short surface then you're going to have to make some tough decisions or land somewhere else. In a tailwheel aircraft you can PROBABLY keep the tail off the ground until you reach a slow enough speed to prevent damage with the brakes and elevator. In a nosewheel aircraft you're rolling the dice.
Zzz, I would consider Embry Riddle, Kansas State University, The University of North Dakota, Utah Valley University, and American Flyers to be major flight schools. There are obviously more than that. I would value there opinions slightly more because they tend to be based on science vice "ass dynamometers".
As for nosewheel technique. Short field raise the flaps and maximum braking upon touchdown. Soft field flare, keep the flaps down, and keep the stick buried in your lap until engine shutdown. Both, roll the dice, you're f'd. I've got quite a few hours flying a Commander 114 in and out of an unimproved strip that was way too short for that aircraft. Another pilot ripped the nose gear off landing on pavement a couple of years after my last flight in it executing what he thought was a relatively benign touchdown. I always wondered if the years of abuse that I put on that plane contributed to the incident.
Again, there is no such thing as a 100% solution. The 206 argument sounds interesting and it's based on a reasonable scientific theory. I've never flown one. Maybe someone else with 206 experience will chime in.

Seems to me:

If your tires are skidding, and you don't like that, try raising your flaps. If they aren't, then don't.

motoadve wrote:Its a Cessna 182, electric flaps.
Mostly interested for short fields and windy days.

I land the short strips ok, but if this helps even more then better to have the skill.

There's a stc for a switch near or on yoke to dump the flaps with flip action. Seems it's for all the electric motor Cessna's.

I'll take the crusty ass-o-mometer pilot who's actually done some rough off airport work in a taildragger than some Embry Riddle CFI for this type of guidance any day.

My ass-o-mometer dumps the flaps on touchdown or to drop in for short field and hard breaking. Most ass-fault CFI's have no actual experience in short off field landings.