http://www.rgj.com/article/20110916/EVENTS05/110916036/Plane-crashes-Reno-National-Championship-Air-Races%27%20rel=%27nofollow

Notice the elevator trim tab in this one

From my brothers buddy (I think a former Harrier guy Vick) who has a box every year. Simply horrific. He obviously comments on what he saw the plane do in general terms. It seems that the maneuver was likely induced at least partially by an aerodynamic failure. I am certain that Jimmy did/would have done everything in his power to NOT do what actually happened. I imagine it would be next to impossible to have that perspective if affected by the outcome so personally.

fucking horrific. A terrible day for families, spectators, and aviation in general.

*****************
Hey Guys,

Thanks for the thoughts. Yea, Bucky and I jumped in and helped with the wounded. Just tying tourniquets and stuff. Several around us died instantly.

Imagine an artillery round going off in a crowd.

I'll post more later but the fucking guy just did a big barrel roll and ended up nose low pointing right at us. I really thought I was toast and just hit the deck. The plane hit at full throttle, power never changed. After the explosion I stood up and there were bodies and pieces of bodies all around me. I got to my Mom who was hysterical and got my Dad to hustle her off. My sister, her husband and my cousin were all ok too. All of us were covered in blood and body stuff.

The only thing to do at that point was to start trying to help the wounded.

We have 5 from our group in the hospital. All should be ok. Just a few broken bones and stitches.

Bad day.

We all got banged up a bit but I was one of the lucky ones

Sent from my iPhone, please excuse the typos!

aktahoe1 wrote:http://www.rgj.com/article/20110916/EVENTS05/110916036/Plane-crashes-Reno-National-Championship-Air-Races%27%20rel=%27nofollow

Notice the elevator trim tab in this one

Is that steam coming out of the belly right by the numbers? Hmm tailwheel down, trim tab missing or fully deflected down which would force elevator up which would cause a pitch up? is there a cooler back there? doesn't look like the elevator is deflected up.

Pretty good discussion over at VAF: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/s ... 701&page=7

Scroll down to comment #70 for a description of a prior trim tab loss incident that sheds some light on this one.

nutria rat wrote:

Pretty good discussion over at VAF: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/s ... 701&page=7

Scroll down to comment #70 for a description of a prior trim tab loss incident that sheds some light on this one.

I was at Reno with Vodoo's crew and Bob that year that happened to the Vodoo Chile. I don't remember the exact details, but I remember Bob saying he passed out for a second or two Very scary shit! I have that whole incident on video tape, but to this day, I have not shared it with anybody but Bob and his crew at the time of the incident.

I believe I heard a comment made a crew member at the time too, that some these "Unlimited" war bird's are being pushed almost over their limits during these racing events.

aktahoe1 wrote:http://www.rgj.com/article/20110916/EVENTS05/110916036/Plane-crashes-Reno-National-Championship-Air-Races%27%20rel=%27nofollow

Notice the elevator trim tab in this one

Looking at this picture close, does it not appear that the pilot is slumped forwards with his helmet on the dash?

Trim tab failure resulting in G-Loc?

It's been amazing to me that I knew more late last night about the horrific crash via this site then I did this morning via the mass media TV news. All in all so far the media has been pretty fair in their reporting of what by any standard is a spectactular disaster, probably the worse thing to happen to aviation in general since 9-11. You think maybe the insurance is going up at AirVenture and other big events? What about little airshows, like the warbird show in Rexburg Idaho?? Hopefully everyone involved will take a deep breath and realize bad things happen and not go too overboard in reacting with more regulations etc. Probably the end of air racing for a while at best.

Meanwhile the carnage on the highways ( I live near the junction of two interstates, so a lot more traffic goes by then just in little old Pocatello) goes on, and nobody gets too excited. Something about aircraft accidents sure pushes all the wrong buttons. Out in the hangar this morning I immediately took a long look at my elevator trim tab...damn what a shame.

courierguy wrote:Out in the hangar this morning I immediately took a long look at my elevator trim tab...damn what a shame.

Interesting you say that CG...found myself doing a triple take on my elevator details as well prior to going out today. You can fly with a missing aileron, rudder, etc. You cant do much with an elevator problem. I have a new respect for all the rocks that hit it...

I took a picture a couple weeks ago, since deleted, of a sage brush branch that was jambed in between my elevator and hor stab in such a way as to stop movement. No biggie as I was at a full stop and outside taking a leak when I noticed it. I PROBABLY could have cleared it by pushing/pulling really hard, if I had taken off with it there (unlikely, I would have noticed it as soon as starting the takeoff roll) but still, it gave me the creeps having my pitch control compromised even stopped and on the ground.

One time I took off with my electric pitch trim WAY out of trim (up/dn buttons on top the stick, I now no longer use the stick top to rest my Flight Guide on prior to takeoff) I thought that maybe I was dragging my irrigation hose and tractor sprinkler behind....it was a real relief to figure out the "problem" was easily solved by re trimming. I'd rather lose roll or yaw

aktahoe1 wrote:Pretty certain it was galloping ghost...I could be wrong but plane was all chrome and a mustang. He went into the A & B row box seats section 103-110. Lots of casulties in surrounding areas and grandstand. Will post more in a bit. It's a horrific scene.

Kevin- glad to hear that you're OK. We were right behind you in the stands and then about 30min prior to the gold heat wandered down to the pits. Were you still sitting in the general stands?? A friend from Squaw - Mark Mirvus was close - ended up with 9 stiches.

We were right on the line about the start of the T-6 section and had a perfect view as Race177 passed Rare Bear, then got into the wash from the leaders, work to recover and then essentially go 'over the top' and straight in. From our point of view (we couldn't see the ground) it looked like it went right into the bleachers. I counted less than 4 seconds from the his first bobble in the wash to impact. yikes.

I know that the news is talking about the missing elevator trim tab, but its one of those questions, like did that cause the problem or was it a result of what was happening?

Think about the controls- leaving pylon 8-9 you are in a steep back left, ailerons roughly neutral, rudder roughly neutral (good reason to make left turns ) you fly into the wash and have to immediately use full left stick to keep from rolling hard right (and as you can see in the videos, its still not quite enough) (BTW, have you ever seen the sea fury wing tip vortices demo?) Now you use some top rudder (right that is) to help urge yourself up and out of the wash that's trying to kill you- maybe even a little back pressure on the stick too, because you need to get up and out of the course. Soooo, full left aileron, lots of right rudder and a fair amount of back pressure... sound like recipe for a spin over the top - Although much accelerated, that's exactly what it looked like from where we were standing.

Glad you are OK. No one ever said going 400+ at 100 ft off the deck was safe....

bryan

I have had elevator trim flutter in my 64 C-182 and thought a prop blade had come off, I pulled up and the flutter stopped, the trim tab horn tore off and I had a lot of inspections and repair after that. On some of the high speed toys Ive flown I have run out of nose down trim at max speeds. A failure or loss of the trim tab then could have caused a hard pull up that I may not have been able to overcome. Then the G loc like Swindle pointed out.

Kathy and I were with 65Charlie yesterday at the Nat’l. Aviation Heritage Invitational at the Reno Air Races... and couldn’t believe our eyes as we saw the impact in front of us, about 250 yards away. I think I remember the concussion hitting my chest, although in hindsight it might just be the emotional shock I remember.
The sound and debris cloud remain my most vivid recollection... and then a profound sadness. Kathy and I looked through our binoculars at the aftermath, but couldn’t bear to look for long.
I’ve driven Kathy home at this time, as she has a full week of classes starting Monday.
The Airport is secured today, but I’ll return to Stead tomorrow (Sunday) to attend a final meeting of the Heritage Trophy and to fly our bird back home to Susanville; about a 35 min. flight.
We are as okay as we can be at this time, and all of our Susanville crowd are accounted for. We hope this will not spell the end of the Air Races.
Safe flying to each of you,
Bruce and Kathy Rhymes

I guess one of my neighbors were there with their kids. The kids were off to one side and the parents were on the other side. They all got out OK. The plane looked like it hit on a slight angle towards the runway and from the videos it looks like most of the force went that way too. This could have been so much worse.

Here is a video showing G loc. It doesn't take any time at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuPTi4rcCV0

Looks like new information says 9 people were killed. I saw one video with a NTSB spokesman and it looks like a Witch Hunt is about to start.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/ ... sh-091711/

emflys wrote:I'll post more later but the fucking guy just did a big barrel roll and ended up nose low pointing right at us. I really thought I was toast and just hit the deck. The plane hit at full throttle, power never changed. After the explosion I stood up and there were bodies and pieces of bodies all around me. I got to my Mom who was hysterical and got my Dad to hustle her off. My sister, her husband and my cousin were all ok too. All of us were covered in blood and body stuff.

To me it sounds like he got caught up in some wake turbulence, possibly causes the trim tab to depart the plane, plane performs an uncommanded pitch up, pilot goes into g-lock is slumped over the stick (hence no helmet visible in the canopy) and stays that way as the plane rolls inverted and keeps pulling up right into the ground.

Don't meant to come off as a Monday morning quarterback... I just want to know what causes these things. Maybe that knowledge will help me some day.

Make every day count. Always treat your friends and family like it's your last day on earth, because one day... it will be.

Been trying to understand the forward g loc. Why not pressed back in that maneuver?

aktahoe1 wrote:Been trying to understand the forward g loc. Why not pressed back in that maneuver?

I've been trying to understand it as well Kevin. I think when the G's are so great, the forward movement of the aircraft is nill. The CG of you head/face is forward as you neck is in the back(ish) and you have more muscles in the back. Try letting your head "drop" forward and then backward.

That's my very non scientific way of thinking about it, all purely BS. Anyone have a better explanation? All the G loc vids I've seen the head falls forward. I'm sure the seat back/helmet attribute as well.

If you watch the YouTube video on G-loc you'll see the passenger's head roll forward each time he blacks out. Most folks have a posture such that our heads are slightly forward on our neck. As we age this seems to become more pronounced. I think that's just the mechanics of the human body.

Jaerl wrote:Here is a video showing G loc. It doesn't take any time at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuPTi4rcCV0

"Steve, are you with me?"

Poor bastard's gonna have brain damage if they keep doing that to him.

Gump