Sidewinder wrote:Yes I do. If there is a particular site I'm interested in that is questionable, but attracts my interest, I will invest time and effort into extensive reconnaissance of that site, so there are no surprises,If I really want to land there. I will use remote methods to probe the surface, and using objects and gravity are the simplest and effective Id hardly say that a couple of cantaloupe sized rocks are going to tax space and weight in the interest of a safe and assured landing. Again this only applies to surfaces that are questionable. and no I do not make a habit of carting rocks for the run of the mill vanilla sand and gravel sites. I got enough in my head thanks.

I surprised by your response MTV, Your one of the more experience pilots on here. You do not take risks foolishly at least I assume.

I roll the wheels on a surface after appropriate number of low passes to evaluate. Then I roll them on heavier and longer as many times as it takes. As you gain experience in the technique AND in the area/LZ type, the number of passes will slowly decrease. The key is safely and thoroughly evaluating a site. Properly and proficiently rolling your wheels on a site should be no more dangerous than landing at a back country strip.

Throwing a rock onto a surface only evaluates that one specific point where the rock lands. You could have a swamp right next to it and that rock tells you nothing about it.
How do you evaluate the REST of your landing zone?

Also, you're littering your littering your LZ with obstacles....the rocks. That size rock is big enough to damage an airplane, like tailwheels, for example.

Finally, you're telling me you fly along at low level, while wrestling a big ass rock out a window/door? Sounds to me like a recipe for disaster......

MTV

Cstolcraft,

If you are trying to develop techniques for mission flying, you should fly with some of these guys and learn. I have little experience in this area, so can't help you. I would suggest, based on posts here, that you practice in their airplane. I except you, like me, use plugs until they have a sharp smile.

There are many spray fields and continuous levees along Ol Muddy. I never had any reason to land in the sand and mud.

Contact

Where does one purchase a cantaloupe sized rock?
Around here, the nearest native rock is buried under a half mile deep layer of sediment. Is it sufficient to just use a cantaloupe?

More seriously - in the last fifty years, the majority of my landings have been on Mississippi River sandbars. I never found big tires to be necessary or advantageous for that. They do have their place, but this isn't it. They are not needed for a downriver landing, and will not protect you during an upriver landing, nothing will.

The biggest issue for landing and takeoff is the sawtooth shape of the dunes and ripples. Some bars have flat areas. Not all do. Where they exist, the dunes and ripples range in height up to 2 to 3 feet, sometimes more. The downstream face is almost vertical. Going downstream, you just ski jump off of them. Going upstream, you slam your prop and wheels into a vertical wall that is up to 3 feet tall (sometimes more). Big wheels won't protect you from this.

The levee tops do indeed make good, solid landing surfaces. The tops are about 11 or 12 feet wide (sometimes 18-20), so be comfortable of your ability to maintain wheels within about 3 feet either side of desired alignment during the landing roll. Biggest issues on the levee tops are lack of ground effect, the unstready uplift on the windward wing during gusty crosswinds, the erratic burble on the leeward wing, and the posts at the cattle gaps.

Biggest issues on the levee tops are lack of ground effect

That's an excellent point.

Many, many lifetimes ago I used to belong to the Cache Creek Drinkin' and Plinkin' Association. We used to fly out to the levees in Yolo County CA, west of Sacramento to shoot. Fun place to fly to, and we could see the deputies driving out towards us from a long way off, as they had to drive the levee tops to get to us. That gave us plenty of time to load up and fly away before they could get to us, or get our N-numbers.

But landing there was a challenge at first, being one who really worked ground effect most times. It wasn't there when expected, or needed. And you had to use power a bit more aggressively to make up for it.

Gump

Yup. I also use ground effect extensively when it is there and make up for the lack with power when it isn't. The 'feel' is different though.

Wow this thread is full of good information, but there are so many variables.... its kind of like the definition of foreplay there is no right way or wrong way just do what works

All I know is that local knowledge dictates that if you land at the Sand Bar in Juneau, Alaska on the wrong night your chances of some sort of hull damage are pretty fair even with 35" Bushwheels.

Merry Christmas all. [emoji1]

gb

gbflyer wrote:All I know is that local knowledge dictates that if you land at the Sand Bar in Juneau, Alaska on the wrong night your chances of some sort of hull damage are pretty fair even with 35" Bushwheels.

Merry Christmas all. [emoji1]

gb

Are u back home ? Hope u had a good ground bound trip with the new RV

There are several right ways, but many, many wrong ways.
Keep in mind that what works on ocean beach sand does not necessarily work on riverine sand.

Just to relate you never know what will happen when u land on a beach.

Had a fellow worker bought a PA-12 and wanted me to check him out on beach landings. We flew across the inlet and south found some nice level beaches and landed. Got out and walked all over from water line to top pf beach telling him what to look for and feel the beach below his feet and look at the color and size of gravel. How to look for obstructions and avoid. Like said before no brakes, use momentum to turn around down hill to avoid rock damage on prop. He made over a dozen take offs and landings and every thing was good. He felt comfortable, back to town. Two days later he went out flying with his new confidence. Landed on the first beach he saw after several low passes. Determined it looked good, came around and landed.
On roll out he hit a small stub, little bigger then your thumb, which he didn't see...it was attached to a buried log which pivoted up and tore his tail off...........pay your bucks and take your chances I guess

All I know is that local knowledge dictates that if you land at the Sand Bar in Juneau, Alaska on the wrong night your chances of some sort of hull damage are pretty fair even with 35" Bushwheels.

From the Pondue, the BOT, to the Great Alaskan Bush Co... There was, and is, some really dangerous territory up in the vast Arctic wastelands.

Gump

DonC wrote:

gbflyer wrote:All I know is that local knowledge dictates that if you land at the Sand Bar in Juneau, Alaska on the wrong night your chances of some sort of hull damage are pretty fair even with 35" Bushwheels.

Merry Christmas all. [emoji1]

gb

Are u back home ? Hope u had a good ground bound trip with the new RV

We are home. Had a great trip, 8400 miles on the old Dodge. Sure enjoyed meeting you guys. Better come see us!

GumpAir wrote:

All I know is that local knowledge dictates that if you land at the Sand Bar in Juneau, Alaska on the wrong night your chances of some sort of hull damage are pretty fair even with 35" Bushwheels.

From the Pondue, the BOT, to the Great Alaskan Bush Co... There was, and is, some really dangerous territory up in the vast Arctic wastelands.

Gump

Got weathered in at 2 of those locations, don't know about Pondue not sure if I been there Never had a problem with landings at those other safe houses.

JimC wrote:
the majority of my landings have been on Mississippi River sandbars.

The biggest issue for landing and takeoff is the sawtooth shape of the dunes and ripples.

Some bars have flat areas. Not all do. Where they exist, the dunes and ripples range in height up to 2 to 3 feet, sometimes more.

In that environment (Mississippi River sandbars), can you see these ripples and sawtooths from the air on a low pass, or can you see them well from 50 feet, or can you not see them at all under most light conditions? How exactly do you gauge the surface when you are flying those sandbars? Light reflections, colors, shadows, orientation relative to the river flow direction?

"How exactly do you gauge the surface when you are flying those sandbars? Light reflections, colors, shadows, orientation relative to the river flow direction?"

All the above, including the effect of local vortices, alignment of snags, etc. It might also have helped that I accessed and investigated the islands, sandbars, and mudflats by boat over and over while doing associated search and rescue work. Additionally, I am a hydology and hydraulics consultant, so am professionally somewhat familiar with how the river flow interacts with the sediment.

As an aside, each island and bar must be reexamined anew every time they reemerge after being flooded. Sometimes they are unchanged. Usually though they are somewhat different.

You also need to be alert to the power lines crossing the Mississippi, and to the B-52's that sometimes do oil-burner routes along the river. While flying 250' feet above the water in a J3, I've had B-52's overtake and pass by at less than my altitude. I trust they knew I was there, but wouldn't bet on it. I haven't seen that in a long time, though and don't know if they still do it. There's nothing quite like seeing the top side of a B-52 go by from 500 or 600 feet away.

"To the OP - I would say avoid SAND bars where you can, and stick with gravel and rock -"

Where do you find any of either on the Lower Mississippi?

How do you post photos here?

As an aside, I much prefer a small tailwheel like the Lang D-501-A on riverine sand, so I can sink it into the sand with up elevator and use it for a brake. It's hard on bearings, but they are expendable.

In my experience, stock 8.00x4 tires have been plenty big enough for the J3, PA-11, PA-12, and older PA-18 on the Mississippi and White. I can't speak to suitability of that size for the T-Craft.

JimC wrote:How do you post photos here?

Instructions in the How To section at the bottom of the main forum index page:
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/ ... orum-15156

There's nothing quite like seeing the top side of a B-52 go by from 500 or 600 feet away.

You got that right. I'll never forget looking down on one when flying my PA 12 across the Bighorns. My first thought was, what a big lizard.

GumpAir wrote:That's why you get someone else to land first!

Gump

before I acquired the name Iceman they called me Canary... after the birds they used to send into the mines to test the air.... didn't like that name much.. .then I fucked up with some dry ice delivery and got a new nickname.....

For all parties interested I finally got the courage up and tried the sand bars. First time around i flew over the spot about 5 times drug the sand at high speed flew over again to look at the marks then decided to land.... the sand was consistantly firm even the tailwheel stayed on top unless turning