Im very tempted to land in some sand bars.
Some I have checked when riding my dirt bike and are smooth and better than many runways, but are tight in between mountains , so I have passed them.

Yesterday discovered another by plane, seems ok, but Im afraid about the take off, doesnt look too long but I worried sand is soft so my take off run will be too long.

Any tips, or warnings about landing in sand bars are welcomed.

This is a video of the one I want to land.


I have the stock wheels and tire size.

Check with local guys who have used them. Do you have tide changes to the river level? How much rain do you get and how does that affect the sand. The natural world is full of surprises. Desert dry lakes are very stable, but you have to watch for wind formed drifts. Also it occasionally dumps rain somewhere in the desert that may cause a dry lake to be wet miles from the rain. Deep dry sand is harder to negotiate than packed wet sand. I had normal tires on various small airplanes that did well in the desert, but my only jungle experience is in helicopters. Go light and take a cell phone so you can cop out if you don't want to take off without help. Get the nose gear off as soon as possible, get the mains off as soon as possible, push the nose over when off to stay in low ground effect until you have comfortable maneuvering speed. Of course the basic low ground effect takeoff is the most efficient takeoff for any situation other than IMC.

I've never done it, but one professional bush pilot told me he preferred tri gear planes, Cessna 206's and Cherokee 6's, for beach landings or deep snow on skis. He said the third full size tire gave 50% more floatation than a taildragger with the same size main tires. And the nose skis helped get the nose up and on top of deep snow where tail draggers tended to just plow through it. Again, this is second hand info, so take it for what it's worth.

Also, river sand is far different from ocean sand. And if it's too fine can cause severe drag on the wheels. I know someone who tried to land a Cessna 150 with 7.00x6 mains and 6.00 nose wheel on a river sand bar only to discover it was fine silt. He couldn't take off again, but kept trying till he hit a bump below flying speed that bounced him up, then down again nose first destroying the nose gear. His plane came home on a river boat.

check it out from the ground first if you can, and have a plan for if you can't get out again. In my opinion, the only reason tail draggers are better for bush work is that it's easier to fit big tires. Imagine the fork you'd need to put a 29" bush wheel on the nose?

Drag it first with the intention of going around to determine how soft/firm the sand is.

Man... I don't know! I would for sure land that one in my Maule, but keep in mind, I've got all the goodies to get me off the ground in a hurry. Trying that one, in the sand, with stock wheels that short would give me plenty of pause... I think you're soft field technique would need need to be perfect and a little help from mother nature in the form of a headwind wouldn't hurt...

Bear_Builder wrote:In my opinion, the only reason tail draggers are better for bush work is that it's easier to fit big tires.

The most important advantage is that a much larger portion of the aircraft weight is reacted by the two main wheels due to the long arm from the cg to the tailwheel. The cg is much closer to the nose wheel on a tricycle gear plane, so it carries a much larger portion of the overall weight. The force on the nose increases as any rolling resistance is encountered. Prop clearance is another big advantage. Tail digs in on a TD - prop comes up, vs tricycle config where nose digs in, prop gets closer to the dirt.

That said, you can still operate tricycle gear planes on soft stuff, people do it all of the time. I have landed with 8.00s on the mains on wet sand several times and there was no problem. If I had rolled up in to the dry sand with any speed, I would have been looking for a ride out.

Motodave: I don't think i'd land the 182 with those tires on anything softer than firm turf, firm gravel or wet sand. Off airport work on to unknown surfaces with that setup is a good way to bend your bird. Maybe you need to trade in for a TD?

I've landed on lots of different sand bars/beaches with my tri gear with 8.00x6s, but I do have really good performance. Keep the PSI as low as you can, and then drag the tires and get a feel for it. I was playing on a sand bar in the Columbia River on Sunday and I did a couple of touch and goes, but didn't really want to come to a full stop because it was kinda sticky and I was leaving some pretty good ruts at 30mph. Maybe you've landed some other soft surfaces you can compare your performance to? Since I don't really have to worry about distance I can't be much help there, but as long as the sand is relatively hard/wet, I bet you'll do just find. There is only one way to find out! Good luck

Dry sand is a whole other story...

YeeHaw

It looks like trucks have driven on there and have not left deep tracks. It looks like there is gravel in the sand and that is a good sign, try and land where there is some gravel in the sand. Load your extended baggage compartment up big time and take the weight off the nose. I sometimes use 2 x 40lb camper style water bags in the back to get the nose light. My 172 works real nice when I can push the tail to the ground with one hand and it comes half way back up when I let it go. They are not sleds so they must come back up a little bit. Run as light as you safely can on fuel load. Go out and get comfortable with the plane rigged in that manner, they will do amazing things.

chosstronaut wrote:I've landed on lots of different sand bars/beaches with my tri gear with 8.00x6s, but I do have really good performance. Keep the PSI as low as you can, and then drag the tires and get a feel for it. I was playing on a sand bar in the Columbia River on Sunday and I did a couple of touch and goes, but didn't really want to come to a full stop because it was kinda sticky and I was leaving some pretty good ruts at 30mph. Maybe you've landed some other soft surfaces you can compare your performance to? Since I don't really have to worry about distance I can't be much help there, but as long as the sand is relatively hard/wet, I bet you'll do just find. There is only one way to find out! Good luck

Dry sand is a whole other story...

Keep in mind that he is flying a STOL specific LSA that weighs hundreds of pounds less than yours on bigger tires going a lot slower.
The penalty for "finding out" without an exit plan could be very costly. Wet looking river sand can be a nightmare and turn out to be a mud flat instead of a sandbar. (see the attached video) And that guy was a very experienced pilot with a Carbon Cub on 31" ABW's.
Notice the take off distance. He usually is airborne and climbing in about 4 plane lengths.
Think about the times you ride your dirt bikes in sand washes. Keep the speed up and your weight aft and they're fun. Slow down and load the front wheel, not so much fun. Same idea with t/ds and trikes.
Also, sand allows you to land way shorter than normal but it increases the take off distance by a similar distance. Especially if you don't have big floaty tires.
I personally wouldn't try that bar alone. Have a buddy fly cover and observe or even better land it first if he's more experienced.

Terry wrote:YeeHaw

Is that Craig?

S-12Flyer wrote:Keep in mind that he is flying a STOL specific LSA that weighs hundreds of pounds less than yours on bigger tires going a lot slower.

Yeah I wasn't trying to encourage anything stupid, just speaking from my experience with landing on sand with tri gear in the Pacific North West. But I think the same general idea applies, low psi, drag tires, walk it if you can, and then use your best judgment. All sand is different so I'm not going to say one way or another based on what I saw in the video. If only I could fly down to Costa Rica, then I'd join ya

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were encouraging anything. Just trying to add a voice of caution.
I'd love to visit him just to ride dirt bikes for a few days. The place looks awesome and some of that single track in the jungle looks incredible.

That's Dave, demonstrating trikes can water play also.
He walks bow legged from his large sac

I think the situations where you find yourself saved by a taildragger are pretty rare, surface-wise that is. If it's rough enough to take down a trike, the taildragger with equivalent sized tires probably isn't going to fare well either.

Maybe...

S-12Flyer wrote:Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were encouraging anything. Just trying to add a voice of caution.
I'd love to visit him just to ride dirt bikes for a few days. The place looks awesome and some of that single track in the jungle looks incredible.

No need to apologize!

Now we just need to organize the BCP Costa Rica Fly-In 2016

Terry wrote:That's Dave, demonstrating trikes can water play also.
He walks bow legged from his large sac

Damn those 172 guys never cease to amaze me

Personally, I would not water ski my way in in a tricycle. At least the two 172's I had, their nose wheels telescoped way below the main wheels while in the air. I could see maybe ending upside down in the river?

Zzz wrote:
Maybe...

Holy crap!!! Musta been some soft cement

The fundamental difference in a tricycle gear aircraft is that the center of lift is in front of the MLG. Lifting the nose forces the MLG tires into the takeoff surface. Personally I would stay away from a real soft field with a Cessna tri gear. A tail dragger transmits lift immediately to all three wheels naturally. Thus the reason hardcore pilots use them for "real" off airport.

I know of several complete wrecks in Oregon and Idaho of friends who wanted to bush fly Cessna tri-gear aircraft. Cessna 172/182's are heavy/underpowered and statically crash a lot in the bush from want I see here in Oregon/Idaho etc..

Check with your insurance company before doing anything crazy. Your milage may vary.

Opinion, no formal research concluded my above statement/post.

175 magnum wrote:It looks like trucks have driven on there and have not left deep tracks. It looks like there is gravel in the sand and that is a good sign, try and land where there is some gravel in the sand. Load your extended baggage compartment up big time and take the weight off the nose. I sometimes use 2 x 40lb camper style water bags in the back to get the nose light. My 172 works real nice when I can push the tail to the ground with one hand and it comes half way back up when I let it go. They are not sleds so they must come back up a little bit. Run as light as you safely can on fuel load. Go out and get comfortable with the plane rigged in that manner, they will do amazing things.

Every time I go fly by myself or two up front I have 50 pounds in the extended baggage compartment, how much more weight can I put without making it too tail heavy?

My 182 already lost 16 pounds in the nose with the MT prop

I have ridden sand bars in many rivers in that area with my dirt bike and they are gravel and most of them not too soft.
But I have never taken off of any soft surface like sand or soft loose gravel.
So I dont know how much take off roll will I need.
It is the take off that has me thinking.