Hello everyone. I'm a longtime lurker, but have never posted. I earned my ticket back in 2003, all in a very new DA-20. Stepped right up to a DA-40(also very low time) the week after passing my check ride. My instructor was a good friend and had a 182, so I also got a little time in that right away.

Then I moved to Hermosa Beach, and didn't fly for a while. I ended up joining a local flying club. I was spoiled by learning in new planes and was turned off by the beat down not so highly maintained 172s and Cherokees that were available. Not to mention the LA airspace is a bit hectic. So now I'm a Private Pilot with ~100hrs and haven't flown in about 9 years.

Anyway, lately I've been getting the itch to fly again. And being a life long dirt biker and offroader the world of backcountry flying is right up my alley.

I really don't enjoy renting. So I've been researching planes that are somewhat attainable (<$50,000), reasonable to learn to fly tailwheel with, and will be able to get into the backcountry when my skills are there. I find the Piper Pacer Taildraggers with 150-160 HP and some mild mods very appealing! I like the Maules too, but they are likely a little out of my price range.

I like that the rear seat comes out of the Pacer easily. Is it possible to get a couple pairs of skis or a couple mountain bikes inside? It would be awesome to be able to get up to Mammoth when the weather is nice! It's not a terrible drive distance wise, but the traffic getting out of LA can add hours to the 300 mi drive.

Anyone have any thoughts on this one? Looks to have all of the mods I would want to make done already.

https://www.controller.com/listings/air ... iper-pacer

And here's a Maule that's close the right $. It includes floats, which I have no use for and would sell. The insurance and higher operating costs are a concern though.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/mobile/se ... e=aircraft

I like both of those, but there are a lot of things to check on each of them. I would highly, highly suggest going out and getting some instruction in each one of those types before pulling the trigger.

Good taste in aircraft! You can find a few Pacers half that on Barnstormers. If I were to spent 50k it would be on a nice PA-11, or PA-18-95.

Pacers are great bang for the buck planes!! The one for sale is overpriced. Things to look for in a pacer. 1956 and later had individual adjusting seats, this is important if you have a instructor with long or short legs, also allows you to set passenger back a bit so shoulders offset. You need brakes on BOTH sides for teaching!!! Don't even thing of learning to fly one without them. 150-160 hp work great, adjust prop pitch/size to fit you mission. Lots have extended/squared wing and it does help with performance, better to buy one with it done already than doing the mod latter. Lots of them for sale like this in the 30 grand range. I would not overlook a high time motor if the price was right 18-20 grand area. Fly it for a 100 hours if possible to get over that first prop strike/ground loop, them rebuild it and have a solid motor with great pice of mind. Lower 48 a set of 26 inch Goodyears with double puck brakes should work great and they don't mind tar. Once you get good with the pacer a set of heavy tread Bushwheels will make women want to have your babies!!!

The big thing is do you have a IA that is good with fabric planes/pacers?? Lots of nightmare stories of guys buying planes only to have a IA that has never worked on one and owner is unable to fly because the plane can't get fixed or unneeded repairs are being done. BEFORE YOU FALL IN LOVE WITH A PLANE MAKE SURE YOU IA APPROVES THE AFFAIR!!! The key to happy plane ownership is having a good IA!!! They are out there, you just have to look a bit and do it before you go shopping.

DENNY

Great advice from Denny

DENNY wrote:Pacers are great bang for the buck planes!! The one for sale is overpriced. Things to look for in a pacer. 1956 and later had individual adjusting seats, this is important if you have a instructor with long or short legs, also allows you to set passenger back a bit so shoulders offset. You need brakes on BOTH sides for teaching!!! Don't even thing of learning to fly one without them. 150-160 hp work great, adjust prop pitch/size to fit you mission. Lots have extended/squared wing and it does help with performance, better to buy one with it done already than doing the mod latter. Lots of them for sale like this in the 30 grand range. I would not overlook a high time motor if the price was right 18-20 grand area. Fly it for a 100 hours if possible to get over that first prop strike/ground loop, them rebuild it and have a solid motor with great pice of mind. Lower 48 a set of 26 inch Goodyears with double puck brakes should work great and they don't mind tar. Once you get good with the pacer a set of heavy tread Bushwheels will make women want to have your babies!!!

The big thing is do you have a IA that is good with fabric planes/pacers?? Lots of nightmare stories of guys buying planes only to have a IA that has never worked on one and owner is unable to fly because the plane can't get fixed or unneeded repairs are being done. BEFORE YOU FALL IN LOVE WITH A PLANE MAKE SURE YOU IA APPROVES THE AFFAIR!!! The key to happy plane ownership is having a good IA!!! They are out there, you just have to look a bit and do it before you go shopping.

DENNY

Thanks for all of the great advice! I currently do not have any relationship with a local IA. I'll have to look into it. It is something I had not even considered.

That Pacer I linked to is definitely priced on the high side. It does have pretty fresh fabric, a lower time engine, and many of the mods I'd like to have(wing tips, VGs, big brakes, 150hp). Pricing out the individual mods it adds up quick. It seems best to find a plane that already has most of it done.

Those damn 31" bush wheels sure cloud judgment! They look so awesome, but I certainly would not need them for a while.

...

Find an IA whose clientele is at least 50% fabric covered aircraft. If his preference is all aluminum aircraft, it is not a good fit.

Need a partner ? Seriously Im in San Diego Just got my PPL and in a local flying club. Don't even have my taildragger endorsement yet.
Will be starting that this month 180 hours and fly 1-2 a week in a 172. backcountry snowboarder who roams between Lone Pine and Bridgeport.
Have been looking at Pacers, 140's ,170's but don't have a clue because I only have one hour in a Citabria.

My budget wont allow for a hanger down here so most likely need something that can sit outside

Biggest obstacle I see so far is Insurance cost. Have no Idea what it would run but spoke to a guy in our club yesterday who pays 400 a month for 60K hull coverage and 1 mil in accident coverage. That is for a 172 that is in our club and gets flow 3-4 hours a day by multiple pilots and is used for training.

I do know Insurance cost depends on experience, Location, hangar or out door storage so lots of varibles

What is a ball park cost ?

Anyway I will be looking around and would love to split costs if logistics work out.

FWIW I have about 3000 hours in Cessna taildraggers, and pay $1060 a year for full coverage on $70K hull.
Low timer pilots, esp those with both low total time and low or no tailwheel time, will pay a LOT.
And will probably be required to get a lot of dual before being covered solo.
But it will ease after you get a hundred hours or so in the airplane without any mishaps.
Insurance rates are based on statistics, some airplanes have high accident rates & therefore just cost more to insure.

sierrasplitter wrote:Need a partner ? Seriously Im in San Diego Just got my PPL and in a local flying club. Don't even have my taildragger endorsement yet.
Will be starting that this month 180 hours and fly 1-2 a week in a 172. backcountry snowboarder who roams between Lone Pine and Bridgeport.
Have been looking at Pacers, 140's ,170's but don't have a clue because I only have one hour in a Citabria.

My budget wont allow for a hanger down here so most likely need something that can sit outside

Biggest obstacle I see so far is Insurance cost. Have no Idea what it would run but spoke to a guy in our club yesterday who pays 400 a month for 60K hull coverage and 1 mil in accident coverage. That is for a 172 that is in our club and gets flow 3-4 hours a day by multiple pilots and is used for training.

I do know Insurance cost depends on experience, Location, hangar or out door storage so lots of varibles

What is a ball park cost ?

Anyway I will be looking around and would love to split costs if logistics work out.

That is crazy high! 400 a month?? Wow... I paid 1450 a year for 80k value on my 180. Surely the club part can't add that much cost??

FWIW, $1020 a year on a cessna 140. This was with 5 hours taildragger and an instructor endorsement. 19k hull value

Called AOPA insurance yesterday . Found out why the guy in my club pays 400 a month. Its for commercial lease back insurance. Because He has multiple pilots, students and CFI's fly the plane.
Im sure He is listing the aircraft as an LLC and claiming all legal tax deductions that go along with it.

Not to Hi Jack the thread but I started throwing out numbers to the AOPA Insurance guy. With 0 hours in a Piper Pacer, priced at 30K I could get insurance at 1404 a year. For a Cessna 170 that jumps to 2036 a year. thats 3oK hull value and 1 million in accident

Although putting a cloth aircraft outside isn't good, for me Outside is the only option. I need to find something with Metal , a Transponder with mode C, radio and at 30K or less. Needs enough power to climb due to mountains

Looking at - Luscombe ,Piper Pacers, Taylorcraft, Cessna 140's, Cessna 170"s
and any other tailwheelers in that price range

I will be ready to buy within six months

A partner would allow me to afford a 170B

suggestions ?

You can get a nice set of covers and greatly expand your choices. The best advice has already been given here - good prebuy by an experienced/knowledgeable in type shop/A&P, good relationship with the IA you will be using, fly it first, or even go get some substantial time in type, and be honest with yourself about your mission and budget.

fly it first, or even go get some substantial time in type

Yes, minimum of 5 hours dual, 5 hours solo before the Insurance will underwrite. That will be the tough part , finding an instructor in the same area as the aircraft you want to buy. Need to set that up with the seller if possible and fly the actual aircraft you want to buy

DENNY wrote:Pacers are great bang for the buck planes!! The one for sale is overpriced.

Maybe. You could go out, buy a ratty Pacer for $20K or less, then spend $30K without blinking while trying to turn it into the one in that ad. No one wants to spend much money on a Pacer, despite them being a wonderful and capable airplane. They have been forever branded as "value" airplanes.

I think I enjoy my Pacer more than I did my 170.

Zzz wrote:

DENNY wrote:Pacers are great bang for the buck planes!! The one for sale is overpriced.

Maybe. You could go out, buy a ratty Pacer for $20K or less, then spend $30K without blinking while trying to turn it into the one in that ad. No one wants to spend much money on a Pacer, despite them being a wonderful and capable airplane. They have been forever branded as "value" airplanes.

I think I enjoy my Pacer more than I did my 170.

Stinsons suffer the same. Lots of ratty ones real cheap.

Zzz wrote:….I think I enjoy my Pacer more than I did my 170.

Photo please!
Where's it based, Z?

You might sniff around to see if you can find someone (older guy maybe) who owns an airplane like what you're looking for, but doesn't fly it much.
Sometimes those guys aren't really still into flying anymore, but aren't quite ready to admit that & sell the airplane.
Someone like that MIGHT be ripe for a partnership deal.
At best, you might end up being essentially the only pilot but only being on the hook for half the fixd costs.
Or maybe also at best, you might end up reignite his urge to fly,
and end up with a flying partnet who you could learn quite a lot from.
First time airplane ownership can sometimes be a steep curve, both learning and financial.
Doesn't hurt to have a mentor as well as someone to share the (financial) pain.