I know I am starting to sound like a broken record here, but damn ski flying is fun!! ....and...I SURE DO LOVE MY 180~!

Have had the opportunity to meet a lot of really great folks on here including the man him self..Zane! Thanks for the site man!!!

Spent the day today with another BCP member Dlhanst and his 185. The guy flies a 777 for his day job! Also got to meet Vick the other day. Now that guy has a job we all want....U2 pilot?? Holy shit... Can you say the ultimate tail dragger?!

Here are a few pics of our little trip into the BC today. Snow was deep. Maybe 12-14 inches or so...

Dlhanst landing


180 & 185


More on this photo in a minute...


This explains the last photo...

Then we were off with some good tracks laid down


Our next stop


And then home

As said, another great day in the mountains flying. Deep snow, blue skis and really cool buddy to fly around with. Thanks for coming up Dave!

AKT

Awesome! Saw your vid with Grant and Rob too...nice. Gimme a call when you get a chance, got some questions for ya.

Snow here sucks! Glad someone is getting some.

Will you just head off to AK to heli ski for the winter so I can stop being jealous?! Oh wait, that might make me a tad envious too.... Great pics! (as always). I'm going to have to pay a visit to my buddies in the Truckee area and bum a ride with you Kevin.

Amazing isn't it, how quick you warm up when shoveling?! I'm putting some velcroed slits on my air force insulated coveralls, to make it easier and quicker to get the thing off over big boots, when all of sudden working hard.

I like the tracks showing the takeoff in the landing tracks, sweet! Glad you got good weather, glad someone does, 42.9 mph gust here, with an air temp of 1.5, guess I'll drive to work today instead of fly like I'd hoped.

This is not good. Now I am now starting to look around the hangar/house for stuff to sell to finance skis. courierguy - yours are all scratched and worn...maybe you should sell yours and get a fancy new set...

Emmet,
Like I said in the Kitplanes article, the damn Bushwheels and the fun had on them during the warmer months, made it impossible to enjoy winter flying! Winter flying as in taking off (on straight wheels, big or small don't matter when there is a LOT of snow) from a plowed/paved strip, flying over lots of great terrain but with many feet of snow over it, and then landing on another plowed/paved strip. One of the funnest things I've done this winter is to hit some spots I just was able to eyeball pre skis, not to mention all the places I never dreamed of going!

I have one place I discovered last year, a big meadow up on a mountain side, where I was mountain biking after landing in the canyon below and camping out. Too much brush for a summertime landing, I GPS'd it as "ski landing", and need to get back there this winter, it will be my most remote and high altitude landing so I'll go loaded for bear gear wise. I've come home a few times now with brush caught in the ski rigging, and have been working on figuring out how much of the brush tops that stick through the snow I can deal with safely, it is usually pretty thin and wispy and no big deal. It continues to be a blast, and the biggest new challange flying wise I'd taken on in years, while at the same time being a major safety improvement when over deep snow

Dave had a hard time with the Penetration skis. Curious if anyone else is running these and your take on them. No disrespect to them, but they seem not really proficient.

I landed the other day with my wheels down on my hydraulics skis purely out of curiosity and had more drag than I can even relate. Talk about a short field landing... Got stuck real quick in 6 inches of snow. Pumped the skis down and I was off.

So my question, why do they even make these. Seems like you can use big tires in the same conditions that the pen skis are getting into. Thoughts?

After we made umpteen dozen laps in the track to pack it down he could finally get off, and he is running a 550 in the machine. Laps were literally 1.5 miles long at 6500'. The hydraulics were up and out in less than 800' in the fresh untracked with 2 pax and 35 gallons of fuel. Again, curious of your thoughts on the penetration skis. The little tail wheel in the back of the skis just makes no sense to me.

They seem to be simpler, lighter, less drag maybe, and less money.

I myself have retracts, I like either all wheel or all ski, and was willing to put up with more complications, more weight, maybe more drag, and for sure more money.

I also get a huge kick out of, in my case, hitting the electrical switch to activate them one way or the other. It makes me feel like a real pilot! And yes I have taken to IMMEDIATELY sucking the wheels up (so to speak, actually sliding the skis under the wheels) as soon as I break ground on the wheels as the drag goes away when in the ski mode, what with the tire faired by the front of the ski. I learned that of course by watching the cool guys with retractable gear airplanes. By happenstance, when I have my Sirius radio on (all the time), and my Telex ANR headset on (also all the time), the retract motors make a slight whine, perfect for an audio que as to when they complete the cycle, saves me looking out the window...?

I need to get over to Alpine Wyoming this winter, I hear of a Husky dealer there who is on Rosi (I think that's what they are called) retracts, to see if he wants to go out and play, no one else in my area is skied up, so I have not had a chance to compare my setup to others as far as takeoff and landing distances, also turn radius.

aktahoe1 wrote:Dave had a hard time with the Penetration skis. Curious if anyone else is running these and your take on them. No disrespect to them, but they seem not really proficient.

Welcome to the wonderful world of penetration skis The penetration skis are a COMPROMISE. A BIG one. They do not in any way compare to either straight skis or even retractable skis. All the power in the world won't help much.

I landed the other day with my wheels down on my hydraulics skis purely out of curiosity and had more drag than I can even relate. Talk about a short field landing... Got stuck real quick in 6 inches of snow. Pumped the skis down and I was off.

So my question, why do they even make these. Seems like you can use big tires in the same conditions that the pen skis are getting into. Thoughts?

The answer is simple: People want to be able to operate on pavement and snow both, and didn't come equipped with unlimited $$$$$ (or simply have other priorities). The difference in price between retractables and penetration skis in the certified world is about triple the price.

After we made umpteen dozen laps in the track to pack it down he could finally get off, and he is running a 550 in the machine. Laps were literally 1.5 miles long at 6500'. The hydraulics were up and out in less than 800' in the fresh untracked with 2 pax and 35 gallons of fuel. Again, curious of your thoughts on the penetration skis. The little tail wheel in the back of the skis just makes no sense to me.

If you get into this situation again, make sure you take some tools along, and REMOVE those miserable little tail springs/wheels from the ski tails. Now, take off. You will not BELIEVE how much drag those little tail wheels create in the snow.

And, by the way, what you have pictured here is distinctly NOT deep snow. Deep snow is when you get out of the airplane, and sink to your armpits in the snow. You're right, in those conditions, you MIGHT be able to land with wheels alone, depending on snow texture. But, get in three feet of snow, and those penetration skis WILL outperform wheels a good bit....

Don't forget that at 6,500 feet, those engines aren't making anywhere near full rated power, either. Granted, the lower temps help a little, but that 300 hp engine in the 185 isn't making any 300 hp.

Penetration skis are a compromise. If you're in really deep snow, they're better than wheels. They are a great way to get stuck, however. If you get in REALLY deep stuff, it is possible to flatten the tires and shove a plate under the tire to block the wheel opening in the ski. This is like a last ditch effort, though, and requires you to find another, shallower snow place to land and inflate the tires (you do carry a pump, right????). In other words, a PITA.

Note that Landes has redesigned those tail wheels on their penetration skis. I have HEARD that the new design is much better from a drag perspective, but I'm not sure they're a direct replacement. ANYthing would be an improvement over those original tail wheels, though. Again, get stuck, remove the tail wheel assemblies (including the springs) from the skis, takeoff and find someplace with less snow to land and replace the wheels, or land on a runway and grind a little bit of your ski off....

MTV

courierguy wrote:
I need to get over to Alpine Wyoming this winter, I hear of a Husky dealer there who is on Rosi (I think that's what they are called) retracts, to see if he wants to go out and play, no one else in my area is skied up, so I have not had a chance to compare my setup to others as far as takeoff and landing distances, also turn radius.

Those are probably Rosti Fernandez 8001 retractable wheel skis, made in Germany, but Thomas Dietrich. Great skis, and VERY large, also very light. I flew a set on a Husky for a couple winters and loved them.

MTV

Rosti: correcto MTV, good to hear they are highly regarded as they seem to be the most similar to my Datums as in basic design. Leaving out the part that they use hydraulics and Datums are all electric of course. Mine are also oversized, I was surprised (once I started paying attention) to see how small of skis some planes much bigger then mine use. Havn't been in snow up to my armpits yet, but crotch high yes, and so far so good

The snow with the tracks is at very least 14 inches or so with deeper spots. The other photo was to get Dave fired up on Ski flying in maybe 3 inches of snow.

My hydraulic skis are working great in the 2-3 ft of deep snow. Would not want the pens in deep snow or for that matter at all.

MTV- good advice on the little wheels. I am certain Dave will read this at some point and will be good advice for certain!

I never flew a pair of penetration ski's that I liked. Like MTV said, they are a compromise. If you live in an area that is mainly hard packed snow, or you only get a foot or two they are OK, but in the deep, they get you stuck real quick! The plates to put under the wheels work OK, but still not as good as a straight ski.

Last winter there were 6 of us that landed in a swamp. When I stepped out fo the plane, I caught myself just as my finger tips were passing the edge of the float. I never did touch bottom, and managed to pull myself back up on the float and get the snow shoes out. Even with good snow shoes, I was going in up to my waist! The guys in the cubs were sunk in up to the belly pod, but my full lotus floats only let me sink in about 3". They give me a false sense of snow depth and now I always check very carefully when stepping off, and dont just jump!

I have to admit, I know nothing about skis, but your pictures are amazing.

Between you and courierguy, I'm hooked (and have a serious case of cabin fever).

I have heard tell of visqueen being used in conjunction with wheel penetration skis. Using an appropriate amount of duct tape, start at the top side of the tip and pull (or just drive over if still mobile) the visqueen under the skis. It's still a long way from being a straight ski but I know that it has made the difference between stuck and unstuck. If landing on pavement it is quickly wore through. Cheap and light, which is many times hard to beat. Of course you have to have both items on hand. As with any ideas and advice, your results may vary
-Nate

AKT1 - great to meet you last weekend, Lowrider too. You guys are having way too much fun up there, the ski shots are awesome!! I flew over Fordyce today and think I spotted your work. Stay after it and post more pics - we're soaking them up!!!

Zane wrote:Snow here sucks! Glad someone is getting some.

Skied White Pass yesterday, sucking would be an improvement over the conditions now!

Vick,

Some nasty looking spider holes in the ice in that photo, almost hidden by snow. Good chance of thin ice or overflow there.

Great pictures, guys, keep em coming.

MTV

Awesome pics AK.

Ok I gotta ask you ski gurus. I went and did some flights with AK in his 180 a few weeks ago. Ya even in 2-3 feet of pow I was at full power to make it turn at walking pace. Nuts how retract skis bury over the top of the tire and the insane power/drag ratio is like float flying which I have alot of experience in to compare.

Soooo I think there are some very big variables even with the ski set ups that can make a HUGE difference. For example, Penetration skis might be a compromise but what if you use the incorrect size tire? If the 185 was running 8.00 or 8.50's and they are supposed to be used with 6.00's I imagine the tire below the ski would be 2-3 inches instead of 1/2-1"???? What if the Penetration Skis were sized larger? Again maybe they wouldn't suck so bad? For example 3000 sized penetration skis would perform like 2500 retracts? With the PROPER setup??? Wondering

Second, Wipaire specs their hyd. skis as 3000's compared to many Skywagon skis like AK's which are 2500's. Size has got to make a huge effect I imagine. Anyone run both sizes on the same plane and have a real life comparison?

AKTahoe's skis ar e2500's????? I don't think so, but I guess anything is possible. I don't recall that Fluidyne built 2500s.

The number designation on skis does NOT necessarily suggest anything about the physical size of the ski bottoms. For example, the C-3200 skis from Fluidyne were almost identical in bottom area to the C-3600. Those number designations represented maximum loaded weight of the airplane.

As to making penetration skis work better, you're right--bigger tires will penetrate further, and create more drag. But, just using smaller tires may or may not be an option. You must use the tires that are approved for the skis, to start with. Secondly, you still have that big hole in the bottom of the ski, complete with the aft edge of that hole, which acts like a big snow scoop. Note also that the Landes penetration skis have two mounting holes for mounting the brackets, so you can set them up for more or less tire penetration.

A bigger penetration ski may float better, but the hole is bigger, and thus bigger scoop. ALso, more weight, and weight can be a significant factor in skis. These things are heavy.

Don't forget my earlier comments about those miserable tailwheels on the Airglass skis. There is no doubt some approved modification to them now, but you will not believe how much drag those things create. Look out the window as you taxi at speed and you'll see a rooster tail of snow coming off them, assuming you can get going that fast.

MTV