I'm suprised not to see anyone talking about STOL mods on this forum. I know there are a lot of planes out there with VG's, leading edge mods, gap seals, and all kinds of other crazy contrivances to improve slow speed maneuvering ability. Share some of your experiences.
I've got a 182 and am considering either VG's or one of the STOL kits offered by horton or bush. Any suggestions?

Hi Seth

I have a '56 C-180. I have the Sportsman STOL and Micro VG's. Have also tried to get rid of a lot of unnecessary weight. I am very happy with the mods. Handles very well is slow flight, 50kts. indicated. Can't tell you for sure but have guestimated MCAI at 22kts. with power and full flaps. Whatever the actual speed, it is pretty slow. Also very good control in crosswinds.

John is correct in that you have to really have to work to make it stall



Hope this helps Gary

I have a 182 B and if they were given to me I would never put VG's or STOL kit on the plane. I like the plane the way it is. Droop tips are a total waste in my opinion.

Ran into Super Dave today and he wishes he had never put the sportsman kit on his skywagon. Know another guy with a 172 with 180HP and he put on a Horton and wishes he hadn't.

On the other hand if I were to buy another plane I would not turn away from a plane that had them, just would not give an extra dime for them.

Hope this mixes the pot a bit.

Tim

we have a 185 (same airfoil-similar airframe) that has the robertson STOL with VG's and ART wing extensions. it works great. lands more like a cub than a 185.

VGs/stol kits can be a good mod on many aircraft, however, VGs are a waste of money on the SuperCub. I've flown them with and I've flown them without. I could not see much of a difference that would justify the price. Mr. Piper built a great wing that needs no mods. A Borer prop and elevator gap seals are all you need. It still comes down to who is flying the bird. "It aint the Meat, it is the motion".

Idaho Supercub

Idaho,

I would respectfully disagree about vg's on a cub. A cub works so well on the low end, that it's true you can get by just fine without them. And I agree that if you are looking to lower your stall speed by adding vgs, they will be a waste of time as the difference will be minuscule.
On the other hand....if you like to have some roll authority left when you get slowed down, a cub with vgs wins hands down every time... and as you have noticed (elevator taped) you can easily get a cub slowed down to the point of having no flare without addition of power. The vgs on the tail fix this (legally btw) ... Comparing one with vgs to one without is kind of pointless, as most of these planes have been modified to the point that they are too different to do an honest comparison. Have you tried flying one without and then adding them?
As to vgs on a Cessna, it seems to me that MTV had less than positive results on his, maybe he can direct you to that thread. I fly a L19 Bird Dog fairly regularly that has a cuff and tips on it but no fences. Not sure which STOL kit that would be, and really couldn't pass judgment on it, as I never flew it without them. I will say that I am surprised that MTV doesn't think that highly of them, I think that plane rocks, and could easily be the "fat mans supercub"!!!

Take care, Rob

Well, well.

Now Seth, I currently fly a 1960 182C with a Sportsman cuff and gap seals, and droop tips. I used to fly a "54" 180 with a Horton cuff. Now I'm not that good of a pilot to tell you the difference between the Sportsman and Horton cuffs. However I would prefer a plane with a STOL kit on, as to not having one at all. Now my 182 had flap and aleron gap seals. I took the flap seals off, because when I got slow, under 70mph indicated a terrific sink rate happened. Took them off and can come in around 60-65 indicated with no problems.

I agree with Tim, and would trade my droop tips for Cessna tips any time. I don't see where they are of much use. I would like to waste the money on VGs if I could ever afford it.

Just my .02 worth.

See ya, Bub

I just purchased a 74 180J with Robertson STOL and VGs. I like the increadible slow speed capability, but agree with previous posters regarding the poor or mushy aileron control at slow speeds with the ailerons drooped. I suspect the aileron feel would be worse without the VGs? But to be fair, perhaps part of the effect is that I am able to go so much slower with the full wing length flaperons that there isn't enough airflow left for the ailerons at that airspeed, drooped or not. For comparison, I recently sold a 59 182B with Horton STOL kit, but that aircraft was about 80lbs lighter.
The 180 came with VGs for the vertical stab that had not been applied. Wonder how much more rudder authority I can expect when these are added. Also, how much of a job to get this done?
And yet another question is that of angle of attack indicators. Sparky had an article in Pilot Getaways about these recently and wonder if anyone has any pilot reports on their usefullness.
Matt
1972 Citabria 7GCBC
1974 Cessna 180 J (only had it in the hangar for 2 days and can't wait for my next day off!)

farmerseth wrote:I've got a 182 and am considering either VG's or one of the STOL kits offered by horton or bush. Any suggestions?

The Sportsman cuff offers more wing area as compared to the Horton cuff, which is like the newer Cessna "Camber Lift" leading edge. The Sportsman kit comes with aileron gap seals to improve aileron effectiveness at higher angles of attack. Flap gap seals improve cruise speed, but they also increase stall speed by reducing the flow of air over the top of the flaps when the flaps are extended. Not good if you want to land slow.

VG's give the most bang for the buck, in my experience. Micro Aero kits also include VG's for the vertical (better crosswind control) and horizontal stab (more effective pitch control at slower speeds.

Wing extensions from Air Research Technology WingX increase the wingspan by three feet and increase the gross weight. If you are considering these, you should verify that the airplane will fit in your hangar after the extensions are installed.

We have a Sportsman cuff, WingX extensions and Micro Aero VG's on the 185. The WingX gross weight increase of 175# to 3525# has increased our useful load to almost 1700#, which is a nice benefit to the normal advantages of having a STOL kit. The VG's on the horizontal stab has trasnformed the landing by increasing the elevator's effectiveness. Depending on the CG, the 185 has a tendency to lose pitch effectiveness in the flare. That tendencey is now gone, thanks to the VG's. I have noticed I now use less brakes for steering with the VG's on the vertical stab, so all in all, the Micro Aero VG's are my favorite STOL kit for the total package they offer.

Lots of interesting stuff here...thanks!

Have a 81 C180K

Sitting in the shed are the Micro VGs which I intend to install over the winter, along with flap gap seals, 10" tailwheel, Alaskan gravel deflectors, and a Challenger air filter...

I had wondered [after I had ordered them] if the seals affected low speed handling and it seems like they do..umm, wonder now if the VGs 'balance' that out...

Cosmetically I'm not so sure about the VGs either as the 180 looks pretty good as is...



A friend is putting VGs on his C182 [N- Reg] so I'm waiting to see how he goes with that [ also going to use the same engineer who will then have experience installing them ]. He publishes a flying magazine over here and has had a test pilot fly the 182 before VG and will get him to do another appraisal after VG..should make interesting reading.

Another friend who has a Super Cub wants to put them on so I'll pass on the comments here to him. We 'hang out' a lot together and it's interesting that the 180 can get in and out of most of the places he finds to land at in the countryside without any STOL gear.

Kiwi

When I read your article and think about the "looks" issueof VG's I think back to before I bought my first diesel truck. I thought they were noisy, rattly sounding vehicles. Ater I bought one, I thought that "noise was the "sound of power", and wouldn't have anything else.

I think some people buy these STOL kits and VG's, which are designed for, and to improve slow flight, but then they don't fly their planes slower.

So if you used to flare around 50 and settle in around 40, know you do the mods, fly the same #'s and the plane wants to float. You need to get new numbers or atleast get used to flying slower speeds.

I have these mods and really wouldn't want to have a plane without them again. And my only experience ith these mods is on the early C-180 wing. Probably effects other wings differently. Do you need them, probably not. Do they let you land slower/shorter/with more authority? Yes. Do they let you get off the ground sooner at a slower speeds with less abuse to your plane? Absolutely. Do they extend your glide and let you hit the ground at a slower speed in the unfortunate case that the fan quits. Yes and I like that idea. Reduce the tendancy to auger in making a turn at slower speeds. Yes.

So besides the advantages of slower flight characteristics, I think that thre are some safety benefits that can be considered also.



I don't know if all of the backcountry flying schools take notes on their students aircraft flying speeds and minimal controllable speeds, but I would guess that they do. I know that they do at McCall. So they have recorded information for students planes before and after these mods(for the returning students that have made the mods), and there is a difference. Call Lori, or Sparky, or any of the other backcountry instructors. They can give you pretty good, first hand, documented information. Then you can make a good educated decision on whether it is worth it for YOU, or not.


Hope this makes sense and Helps. Good luck and fly safe Gary

Interesting thread, and quite characteristic of these sorts of discussions, wherever you find them.

Here's the bottom line: Your mileage may vary.

Someone said that they were surprised that I have had negative experiences with VG's. That is NOT what I wrote. What I said is that on MY airplane, a Cessna 170 with a stock wing, the Micro VG's softened up the stall a little, they added just a tiny bit of additional aileron effectiveness at high AOA. I do not believe that they changed stall speed measurably in any consistent manner. I also commented that ON THIS AIRPLANE, I would not install them if I had it to do over.

Now, on a Super Cub, Vortex Generators do wonders, as they do on Scouts. Both of these aircraft benefit greatly from the application of VG's. I just don't see much point on a Cessna, or at least ones I've flown with VGs. I have not flown any of the tri gear Cessnas with VG's, nor have I flown any with the VGs on the vertical stab, so don't misquote me.

I have installed the Sportsman kit on a couple of Cessna aircraft. On the 185, this is about the best modification to improve stall characteristics, to actually lower stall speed and to return aileron effectiveness at high AOA, it seems to me. This kit contains aileron gap seals, and they really help on RSTOL equipped aircraft.

The ART or WingX wing extensions also benefit the STOL performance of Cessnas greatly. As noted, be careful with these if you park in a T hangar, and they are expensive to install, compared to the others.

I would NEVER put flap gap seals on a Cessna. They may improve the cruise speed a tad, but they also significantly and negatively effect the performance of those big slotted flaps at high AOA, and those flaps are one of the really magnificent features of these airplanes. If you want to go faster in one of htese things, put in a bigger motor, but don't deteriorate the slow speed characteristics.

Note that this is all opinion, based on my personal experience.

Your mileage may vary.

As to the "AOA indicator" discussed by Imeson, I've flown three airplanes with these devices, one of them extensively. The device is a waste of money, IN MY OPINION. Spend the money for gas, and learn to fly the airplane precisely BY FEEL. The very primitive device described here sort of measures AOA, but at only one point on the wing, and even there, rather crudely. IT would be a great device for flying 1.3 Vso, but then airspeed will do that for you. We tried one of these things on a 185 to evaluate in the back country, and off airport, and very soon every pilot simply ignored the thing, because its information wasn't as accurate as what the airplane will tell you anyway.

Again, your mileage may vary.

MTV

MTV, sorry my post wasn't clearer... it was the L19 I was refering to, that you did not think highly of.... And I DO know how to use the "quote" feature so don't even go there ... BTW ... very off topic... I just saw my first SIAI Marchetti (Turbine L19 Bird Dog) in person... If this is not the greatest thing since canned beer I don't know what is? two thoughts come to mind; A) Turbine cubs of Wyoming is tardy... B) can you say 2 place Porter
And since I have this morning off...it's time to fly ciao!

Rob,
I have tried friends SuperCubs with the mods. Sorry, I just don't see much. I agree that other aircraft need them, especially the Scout. The Maul seems to do just fine the way Mr. Maul made them.

Take Care,

Idaho SuperCub

mtv wrote:I would NEVER put flap gap seals on a Cessna. They may improve the cruise speed a tad, but they also significantly and negatively effect the performance of those big slotted flaps at high AOA, and those flaps are one of the really magnificent features of these airplanes. If you want to go faster in one of htese things, put in a bigger motor, but don't deteriorate the slow speed characteristics.

MTV

Amen to that. My 206 came with the Horton kit, aileron gap seals and flap gap seals. The upside is that is trues out around 140 knots w/8.00s and no fairings. The downside is that the effectiveness of the flaps is compromised. There is a significant buffet and a sharp break at stall--very un-Cessna like. I'm going to look into removing the flap gap seals when I have the plane painted.

CAVU

Rob,

I guess I wasn't very clear on my thoughts on the L-19 either. The L-19 is basically a 170 with a big engine and a somewhat different fuselage. They offer great visibility, and their performance is great, no doubt.

The down side is that like the 170, they are all pretty old, and there aren't nearly as many of them around as there are 170's. So parts can be an issue. Right now, they are being supported, but all it takes for that to change is for one company to go out of business. Frankly, that's true of a number of planes, though.

The original engines are sort of an odd duck. They work fine, but are hard to get overhauled, and to switch engines to a "better" engine means approvals, etc, and more money.

The Sia with the Allison turbine is a performer no doubt.

I think my comments regarding the L-19 weren't so much that it is a bad airplane, but rather that for the money, there are other airplanes that would be easier and less costly to support. It may not have come across that way, and if not my apologies.

Idaho, there are TWO very different VG kits for Super Cubs. I've flown the same airplane before and after with both kits. They both help, but they also do somewhat different things for the airplane.

One of the things I failed to mention earlier is that I know of one Sportsman kit that was installed at the wrong angle . That owner was rather displeased with the kit, but it wasnt' the kit's fault.

Again, different airplanes, different uses for the airplane, different pilots will all produce very different opinions of all these things.

More wing area WILL increase lift, assuming the same speed and AOA--a pretty incontrovertable fact. The rest, well.....

MTV

There used to be a fellow in Idaho by the name of Mike. I do not remember his last name. Flew a red 180. I have witnessed some of his flying skill. His claim was that his favorite back-country plase was a STOCK 54 180.

His name was Gene Block. Gene was a retired Delta 777 pilot originally from Western airlines. Gene was killed a couple of years
ago in Salt Lake as a passenger on a Bonanza that didn't make it on takeoff. They were on there way to Oshkosh. It crashed and burned while his wife watched their takeoff . Yes, he was a great pilot and there was not a strip in Idaho where that old stock 180 had not been with Gene. A friend of mine now has that 180. His favorite strips were Mile High and Simonds, and he was their unofficial caretaker.


Idaho SuperCub

For some years I had preached that we needed to put STOL kits on our 182s with not much luck. Then, last year we obtained a CAP plane that has one on it to replace one of our 182s. Now all I hear is how we should have had one sooner. I love flying the plane and the added slow flight performance is very noticeable. In fact, I flew our non-STOL 182 for the first time in months a few weeks ago and couldn't believe the difference. Takeoff and landing distances were noticeably different. The first time I flew the STOL 182, I couldn't help giggling as I watched the airspeed indicator rest on the stop and the GPS ground speed was somewhere south of 50 knots. What a beautiful thing!!

AOPA had an article on VGs recently, so this has been interesting to read. I had wondered how much more of an enhancement they would be.

Best STOL mod that I installed was the thrust-line mod on the SuperCub. By far this one mod was the best bang for the buck. It improved all aspects of the flight envelope.