AKclimber wrote:People should stop thinking ADS-B is some sort of a panacea.
If anything, I fear it's going to make mid-air collisions more likely with pilots overly relying on it in the backcountry where mountainous terrain may possibly interfere with accurate ADS-B position signal.
For example, both of the planes in the Ketchikan mid air last year were equipped with ADS-B.

I didn’t realize both airplanes were ADS-B equipped. From the reports, it seems that the Otter was equipped with both in and out; however, here is no mention of ADS-B in or out in the Beaver. If the Beaver did not have ADS-B in or out, and was relying on see and avoid plus radio calls, we have strong evidence that the method failed. If we could go back in time and install in and out in the Beaver and recreate the events leading up to the midair, I hypothesize that the outcome would have been different.

ADS-B is no panacea, and it comes with significant downsides such as cost and loss of privacy among other things. But the advantage of providing traffic information on a tablet or screen is not one of the primary disadvantages. Yes, distraction is a risk of having this information, but engine analyzers, GPS, moving maps, ForeFlight, passengers, bugs, texting, and myriad other things that pilots do instead of looking out the windows are equally as bad as ADS-B.

asa wrote:One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is ADS-B. What do you all think about it?

Funny

Squash wrote:

asa wrote:One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is ADS-B. What do you all think about it?

Funny

The ADSB source code is mostly C++. They should of used PYTON

Code: Select all

 script.py
IPython Shell
x = “Hello ADSB and World”
if x == 1:
    # indented four spaces
    print("x is 1.")


JP256 wrote: Whether it's my vision getting progressively worse (normal aging stuff - nothing wrong with the eyes) or just suddenly becoming aware of a lot of traffic that was always there and never before noticed, I cannot say. But I can say – absolutely and categorically without exception – that ADS-B traffic information in the cockpit has made my flying MUCH safer.

ADS-B traffic information is NOT the be-all, end-all solution for traffic avoidance. But neither is "see-and-avoid"... Working together, the two are better than either one alone. That's why I've installed it in every plane I've owned since it became available. You're free to have a different opinion, and to act accordingly.

Okay. You just gave up your privacy for perceived security. All too prevalent in today's panic mode world. Sad and foolish. Hope you enjoy your user fees and automated violation enforcement.

Wires are my biggest fear, not mid-airs. When I find them I add a waypoint to Foreflight titled AK-DANGER-WIRES so the next time I'm in the area I'm reminded they are there. I replace AK with whatever state or province/territory the wires are in.

In the last 10 years six pilots I've know have been killed in plane crashes. Four just last year. For sure five of them were "pilot error". The sixth probably but it happened on a sunny clear day so not sure. None of the six would have been saved by ADS-B. I wish there was a "Judgment Box" that could be installed in aircraft for those times when WE exercise less than good judgement- that would actually be useful.

I'm trying hard to remind myself every time that takeoffs and landings are the most hazardous profiles of flight. I'm trying hard to remind myself to never be complacent in those flight profiles.

Here are the ADS-B tracks of both planes:
https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10070 ... ter-N959PA
Here's the last track of the Beaver on flightaware:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N952DB

I am not sure why the reports do not mention the ADS-B installed in the Mountain Air Beaver, only that the Otter pilot did not see any conflicts on his ADS-B.

Possibly because it would show that ADS-B is not the see all end all solution.

AKclimber wrote:Here are the ADS-B tracks of both planes:
https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10070 ... ter-N959PA
Here's the last track of the Beaver on flightaware:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N952DB

I am not sure why the reports do not mention the ADS-B installed in the Mountain Air Beaver, only that the Otter pilot did not see any conflicts on his ADS-B.

Possibly because it would show that ADS-B is not the see all end all solution.

Wow. Yes, this certainly suggests an epic failure of all anti-collision methods. Shoot.

Maybe someone will design self-flying planes with ADS-C? Wouldn’t we all just love that?

Squash wrote:

AKclimber wrote:Here are the ADS-B tracks of both planes:
https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10070 ... ter-N959PA
Here's the last track of the Beaver on flightaware:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N952DB

I am not sure why the reports do not mention the ADS-B installed in the Mountain Air Beaver, only that the Otter pilot did not see any conflicts on his ADS-B.

Possibly because it would show that ADS-B is not the see all end all solution.

Wow. Yes, this certainly suggests an epic failure of all anti-collision methods. Shoot.

Maybe someone will design self-flying planes with ADS-C? Wouldn’t we all just love that?

These were both sight seeing flights. Guess who assumes the role of "Announcer" in these deals. I've done enough sight seeing flights to know that passengers are asking questions frequently, particularly in these relatively large aircraft, where there are quite a few passengers.

My point is, it's REALLY easy to become distracted on these deals, particularly if a passenger sees a bear/moose/elk/etc.....and calls it out. Now, the pilot is trying to "find" it, and fly the plane and.....avoid other traffic.

And, when you're as close to the surface as these planes were, I'm betting the pilots weren't spending too much time looking at a screen inside......I sure wouldn't.

A tragedy in any case.

In my earlier post, I didn't emphasize enough the risks of flying low. I see and fly with a fair number of folks who think it's really fun to fly low.....and you don't have to spend much time poking around on YouTube to see a lot of that. There's nothing inherently dangerous about flying low.....till you hit something. Could be a wire, a lone tree, a tower (ask any sprayer about Met Towers), etc, etc.

I spent a LOT of time at very low heights, most of that in Alaska, where there are relatively few towers and wires, which will spoil you.

Be careful out there, folks.....

MTV

C180_guy wrote:Okay. You just gave up your privacy for perceived security. All too prevalent in today's panic mode world. Sad and foolish. Hope you enjoy your user fees and automated violation enforcement.

I presented a reasoned explanation for why I made the personal decision to implement ADS-B. I truly do understand your viewpoint, and acknowledge your right to hold it, and to express your opinion. I simply hold a different opinion, and do not believe it stems from sadness, foolishness, or panic about anything. In my case, the "perception of security" is a demonstrable enhancement to the safety of my flight operations. Your experience may be different, but I've found that most of the folks who take such a hard line against ADS-B and claim it offers no benefits have little to no experience with it. I'm not saying that's true for you, but it would be interesting to hear first-hand evidence from you of situations where ADS-B increased your personal danger level instead of decreasing it. THAT would be an interesting read.

As for my personal decision to implement ADS-B in my personal airplanes – I don't believe that I have given up any significant privacy beyond that already yielded to the N-number painted on the side of my airplane, visible to anyone on the ground who chooses to look up. I'm committing aviation in full public view, in public airspace. How much "privacy" can I reasonably expect?

But as for the "automated violation enforcement" concern – I'll share my patented, sure-fire solution. Ready? "Don't commit violations, and you won't receive violation enforcement actions." Worth every penny you paid for it, right? I've got nothing to hide, so I'm not worried about the FAA monitoring my flights – I sleep pretty well at night!

But ss for user fees, I do agree they pose a significant danger to general aviation as we know it. And I fully acknowledge that ADS-B OUT could absolutely be used to document flight activities that might result in service fees. But don't think for a minute that ADS-B is the only way those fees could (or would) be enforced.

Is your N-number registered with the FAA? Do you ever call for a weather briefing? Ever talk to ATC for any purpose? Have a subscription (or purchase one-time updates) for your avionics databases? Subscribe to any EFB? Pay for AvGas with a credit card? Carry a cell phone when you fly? Have a satellite phone or PLB subscription? Use XM Aviation Weather? Any (and all) of those could be used to determine who is using aviation services and charge them a user fee.

That's why it is critical that all of us pilots continue to support the AOPA, EAA, and other aviation alphabet groups in their efforts to derail any type of user fees before they even make it to the floor for discussion. Because if they do go into effect, there will be no place for anyone to hide.

Not only looking outside continuously but moving head a bit, stop, a bit, stop...
This is a mechanical thing that must be practiced as it is not natural. It is similar to instrument cross check. Like hand flying IMC, it is intense and tiring.

My main concern with ADS-B is that it may create a false sense of security and lull a pilot to do a less than ideal outside the cockpit scan.
The "enhanced" situational awareness may in fact be false security. Just because a bunch of targets show up on the ADS-B screen, how many are really a factor that would not have been seen with a visual scan in a non ADS-B equipped airplane?

The Ketchikan midair is a perfect example that ADS-B is not foolproof even when both planes have in-out.
The fact that the Otter pilot mentioned in the FAA report that he did not see any other traffic on the ADS-B screen shows that the pilot was relying on the ADS-B for traffic information. But was it at the expense of the outside scan? I mean he literally just ran over the Beaver from behind.


And regarding the user fees, well, here is something to ponder:
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/articl ... ds-b-data/

Speaking of power lines....I may as well fess up, I got tangled up in some this weekend. An initial distraction, followed by other distractions was all it took. I heard a noise that sounded like a combo of POP and CRUNCH, but didn't feel anything untoward, so kept going. The first indication I had of a real problem was a women hollering "you're in the wires!"

I was in the operator cab of my 30 ton National crane, working on a project (lifting a 3,000' pound modern/new sheep camp, and setting it 50' away) for what are my closet neighbors, and the reason I mention that is I think that maybe that lulled me into, or out of, my normal work mode mind set. The initial distraction was when I first stopped on the 20% grade, thinking I was along side the area it was going to be set, and i immediately noticed the proximity of the power lines, and made a mental note.Turns out, the area was another 60' or so up the driveway. The second distraction, was the extreme slope required some special techniques to get enough dunnage under my outriggers, to get the crane level (always required) before running out of outrigger travel. These two initial distractions, combined with the nearness to my place (I could see it) in retrospect through me off my usual all business mindset. I even had my dog along,and that doesn't happen at my usual work. So once I sat my ass in the op seat, it was boom up and lets lift a sheep camp.

THE GOOD THING WAS: all I had snagged (and broken...) was the lower ground wire, the "hot" wire of the residential line was 2' vert above. I can estimate, using a little mental geometry, how close the boom tip came to the hot wire, based on the boom extension and angle, and so on and so forth. but lets just say it was too damn close! Maybe an inch or two, no more then 18-20". There is no way of knowing for sure what would have happened if I had contacted the hot, it depends on the pole's breaker, how well or not the crane was grounded, etc., but it could have been a deal breaker. A pilot buddy who also operates the smaller cranes/larger boom trucks, burned his rig to the ground (though he didn't get zapped) as it sat there and boiled off the hydraulic fluid, and then the tires. Many times, I'm told, all that happens is the nearest disconnect pops open (I called it a breaker earlier) some sparks fly, and that's about all. Other times...... My first reaction was to try to kick myself in the ass, I was pissed at my stupidity, really pissed. I got away with it, no damage at all except for what will probably be less then a $500.00 bill from the utility, they arrived from town with a 2 man crew and a small bucket truck, and were driving down the road leaving 40 minutes later. I kinda hope they sock it to me on the bill, just so the lesson sinks in real good. Exactly like in flying, complacency is the big enemy, I'm coming up on 20 K hours as an operator, and got a good (and cheap) wake up call. TOO CLOSE, WAY TOO CLOSE, indeed.

I got the hot wire going into an alfalfa field. Either the prop or wire cutter in front of the windscreen cut it. One end burned a hole in the leading edge fabric. I expected it was there but couldn't find a pole anywhere along the treelined border. Wires are hard to see.

The topic of usefulness of ADS-B in information has been debated on other threads. I see it as a useful tool in crowded controlled airspace. I have been impressed with the ability to see ADS-B equipped airplanes in remote backcountry locations but would definitely not rely on not seeing anything pop up on a screen as indication for safety. See and avoid is best in remote areas. I do see ADS-B in information as useful. It is just another set of eyes for me. It can be difficult seeing airplanes in certain lighting conditions and blind spots on the airplane. The ADS-B information gives a general location of the traffic. My most recent close one occurred in the local Portland area. I was flying straight and level at 2500 feet. There was a 150 practicing steep turns. I was headed into the sun and could not see him until he was about 200 feet from me. I banked about 30 degrees left and missed him by about 25-30 feet. I doubt he ever saw me - he was probably just worried about maintaining his altitude and doing the maneuver. For what it is worth - I did not have ADS-B in at the time. Data will emerge in the upcoming years whether there is actual data showing safety of ADS-B in safety in GA airplanes. I have new avionics in my C180 now. I keep the traffic screen on and just consider it part of my scan.


Josh

Adsb....whether there is agreement with the mandate or not, it is undeniable that it is a valuable tool, you simply cannot present a rational argument to the contrary. Do not confuse your disdain with a government mandate with the potential value that it may provide. “Never, ever for me”, “false sense of security”, “user fees”....etc... Seriously, can we not agree that it is a tool that we have been mandated to use in certain airspace and it actually can dramatically increase your overall awareness. Might we suggest that you be smart and don’t stare at the screen and not abandon your normal visual scan. By the way, I completely disagree with the “mandate” but acknowledge that there is nothing I can do about it but embrace it and get smart on it. Choose not to equip because you aren’t required? That is your choice, but you might be limiting your SA. Choose not to equip where it is required? I hope your pilot’s license isn’t related to your livelihood......

I’m going to trash my cellphone because it listens to me (bugs my conversations), records my movements and records hidden video? Also, tracks what I purchase. Unauthorized entities have my personal information because I used my credit card to buy a motorcycle helmet. Face recognition is a daily occurrence for many Americans plus license plate tracking. New Jersey has been tracking vehicle license plates for over 10 years. Dudes, there is no privacy anymore, deal with it.

In Australia every vehicle is tracked. Freaked me out when I received a toll road bill from NSW, they knew every street I drove on. They knew where my tent was on the beach!

Sure I’m paranoid that I may fly over a bird sanctuary and get a letter from the FAA (or NOAA) because of ADSB software triggers. But, I don’t wish for the good old days using an ADF and a sexton to cross the Pacific Ocean either.

ADSB is ADSB sorry about that Mates. It is a tool and it’s here to stay. Learn it, use it (and fear it, if you prefer). Our cellular telephones can tell the FAA more than ADSB will.

Carry on men...

You might compare equipping with ADS-B to carrying a pistol..
Both can be lifesavers if properly used.
Both can fail to be lifesavers (or worse) if improperly used.
Both could be considered as providing a false sense of security, from a certain point of view.
I equipped with ADS-B/out not by choice,
but because flying in the Puget Sound area where I live without it would be inconvenient & impractical.
I bought a Statux ADS-B/in gizmo from a friend for $50, mainly because of "why not?".
I've only flown with it once-- so far it hasn't been a game changer,
but time will tell.

8GCBC wrote:I’m going to trash my cellphone because it listens to me (bugs my conversations), records my movements and records hidden video? Also, tracks what I purchase. Unauthorized entities have my personal information because I used my credit card to buy a motorcycle helmet. Face recognition is a daily occurrence for many Americans plus license plate tracking. New Jersey has been tracking vehicle license plates for over 10 years. Dudes, there is no privacy anymore, deal with it.

In Australia every vehicle is tracked. Freaked me out when I received a toll road bill from NSW, they knew every street I drove on. They knew where my tent was on the beach!

Sure I’m paranoid that I may fly over a bird sanctuary and get a letter from the FAA (or NOAA) because of ADSB software triggers. But, I don’t wish for the good old days using an ADF and a sexton to cross the Pacific Ocean either.

ADSB is ADSB sorry about that Mates. It is a tool and it’s here to stay. Learn it, use it (and fear it, if you prefer). Our cellular telephones can tell the FAA more than ADSB will.

Carry on men...

Maybe that's how the sheeple roll 'down under', but in 'Merica, most people would rather assume some risk and live in freedom than safe slavery.

I wish that you’d add something productive once in a while.

We old soldiers appreciate that you young guys, Cam, are still risking your lives for our freedom.