8GCBC wrote:Micro bursts can rip a forest of healthy trees out, I have seen it. We must be careful about what we read and other people's complacent attitudes when it comes to turbulence.

We must be careful about getting on high horses too.

In my opinion extreme downdrafts, microbursts, or other large scale persistent air current is quite a different situation to random mechanical turbulence or localised wind shear within an air stream. One is clearly dangerous in most cases, the other is just uncomfortable in 99% of cases. Apples and oranges.

Most of our South Island's north western forests are scarred with recent damage from extreme storms. Literally hundreds of hectares of forest flattened. But we are talking extreme weather, 1 in 100 year storms. Even the birds weren't flying that day.
I don't think the OP was asking about flying through thunderstorms in a light single.

I consider myself a sissy with turbulence now a days. I go straight back to below VA and I don't last long thereafter. I don't like getting my arse handed to me. I'm not going to let anyone pressure me into turbulence that makes both my plane and I uncomfortable. I'm not much for aerobatics, either. I get queasy quick. I don't mind a quick bout of turbulence if it's not too bad and goes away fast.

While the air in a down draft may flatten out and go horizontal, an aircraft weighs more and the inertia of the aircraft may continue down and hit the ground. If you are counting on the air "flattening out" and saving you, you may want to rethink that strategy.

Headoutdaplane wrote:While the air in a down draft may flatten out and go horizontal, an aircraft weighs more and the inertia of the aircraft may continue down and hit the ground. If you are counting on the air "flattening out" and saving you, you may want to rethink that strategy.

Very true. Example: About 30 years ago, I was landing on 30 in the TR182 at Laramie, summer time, very windy day probably 20G25-30, with dust devils popping up here and there. As usual, the wind was splitting the runways, varying between about 240 and 270. I was bouncing around pretty well, carrying some power with only 10 flaps due to the crosswind, maybe 100' in the air, when suddenly the bottom dropped out. I applied full throttle and just barely got the descent arrested as the mains touched down pretty hard. I have little doubt that if I hadn't taken advantage of that 235hp turbo-charged engine, I'd have pranged pretty expensively.

I've seen some of the wind-torn trees when there's been extreme micro-bursts, with the trees scattered in several directions. I have no doubt that that sort of extreme weather isn't flyable under any conditions.

So far I've not experienced enough turbulence in the last 44 years to make me want to stop flying altogether, but there have been days that I was glad to get out of the air. The event above is one of them. Another was a year ago, on a day that seemed plenty flyable for a local flight. I took off on 10 at Greeley, flew in relatively calm air only for about 20 minutes to the northeast when it started to get bumpy. A quick listen on the AWOS showed that the wind had gone from maybe 3 knots at 100 to 25 knots from the northwest--dramatic change in direction and velocity in such a short time. As I headed back, the turbulence increased, and puppy dog and I were really being tossed around. I landed on 28 straight-in, very glad to be on the ground.

I'm sure my airplane can handle more than I want to, not just because of my concern for my aging airframe, but my tolerance has grown much less--I really don't enjoy a whole lot of bumps. Light turbulence, OK. Light to moderate, OK. Moderate, I start looking for a place to land. I fly because I enjoy flying. One benefit of retirement is that I don't need to be anywhere at any particular time, so if I can't enjoy the flight, I just don't go.

Cary

I USED to take comfort from that whole "doesn't go all the way to the ground" saying, but no more. All it took was one time going from 4000 to less than 100 feet AGL in a short minute, then flying through the ground level turbulence, to convince me that downdrafts are potentially lethal.

Just a fluke of geography that I survived it. Trees, hills, buildings, power lines...any of them would have killed me. I'm not so sure another two hundred pounds in the airplane wouldn't have killed me.

Headoutdaplane wrote:While the air in a down draft may flatten out and go horizontal, an aircraft weighs more and the inertia of the aircraft may continue down and hit the ground. If you are counting on the air "flattening out" and saving you, you may want to rethink that strategy.

Yup...

Just ask the bugs that go splat on your windshield at 60 MPH.

Gump

Battson wrote:

8GCBC wrote:Micro bursts can rip a forest of healthy trees out, I have seen it. We must be careful about what we read and other people's complacent attitudes when it comes to turbulence.

We must be careful about getting on high horses too.

In my opinion extreme downdrafts, microbursts, or other large scale persistent air current is quite a different situation to random mechanical turbulence or localised wind shear within an air stream. One is clearly dangerous in most cases, the other is just uncomfortable in 99% of cases. Apples and oranges.

Most of our South Island's north western forests are scarred with recent damage from extreme storms. Literally hundreds of hectares of forest flattened. But we are talking extreme weather, 1 in 100 year storms. Even the birds weren't flying that day.
I don't think the OP was asking about flying through thunderstorms in a light single.

Oh really. Interesting conclusion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_Alley

As always, God is bigger than any of us. Avoidance of most things in life will keep them from killing us. And yet, each of us will die. Don't let avoidance of downdraft prevent us from making use of updraft. Natural energy seems to work both ways. At least pushing over and going fast through most downs will get us through it quicker and zoom to use to climb slow in the next up. Net gain. Or if in the "big one " we could hit. Nothing I have ever flown is going to climb out of a downdraft that is going to wipe out the trees.

Contact's got the right idea here. This is the secret of competitive soaring. No point forcing nature, Its sort of like martial arts too. If your opponent is large and strong (Mother nature) Use that great energy to your advantage, ya got to roll with the punches. If your in the mix, slowing down will help a lot, while keeping a relaxed grip in the stick. Let stick pressure "float" sort of speak, don't fight it. If the nose is forced down, let it go, it will be easier on the airframe, and you. If you jammed upward, well I like to pull up a bit and take advantage of the free altitude. If its really rocky, keep it slow and use rudder only to keep the wings level. The faster the airspeed the more jarring it will be.

Sidewinder wrote:Contact's got the right idea here. This is the secret of competitive soaring. No point forcing nature, Its sort of like martial arts too. If your opponent is large and strong (Mother nature) Use that great energy to your advantage, ya got to roll with the punches. If your in the mix, slowing down will help a lot, while keeping a relaxed grip in the stick. Let stick pressure "float" sort of speak, don't fight it. If the nose is forced down, let it go, it will be easier on the airframe, and you. If you jammed upward, well I like to pull up a bit and take advantage of the free altitude. If its really rocky, keep it slow and use rudder only to keep the wings level. The faster the airspeed the more jarring it will be.

Former sailplane pilot here... this leads me to an old philosophy I learned long ago. If you have to fight the plane into something it seems like it really doesn't want to do, you're, more often than not, doing it wrong.

Just release the control wheel, in a downdraft, and see what the airplane wants to do. Just release the control wheel, in an updraft and see what the airplane wants to do.

The last few posts about a light hand on the control stick, nail it. Holding it in a death grip is not the way to deal with it for me anyway, Holding the stick loose also allows my sweaty palm to dry out, true story.

The other day in Copper Basin, after riding my ebike to above 10K after landing at the CB strip which is at 7900' (highest strip on the chart in Idaho?) the strong gusty winds up there while riding made me a little queasy about the flight out. Once down lower back at the strip, the winds were lighter, so I opted for the low level "sneak out of there" approach, and followed a canyon out. As opposed to my earlier intended direction of flight up and over a 8800' ridge with a sharp descent on the other side, with a 20 mph tailwind...... It was nice to have the winds aloft info from the bike ride, and that is the thing I love most about having a GPS, and the main use of mine.

Hammer wrote:

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I USED to take comfort from that whole "doesn't go all the way to the ground" saying, but no more. All it took was one time going from 4000 to less than 100 feet AGL in a short minute, then flying through the ground level turbulence, to convince me that downdrafts are potentially lethal.

Ugh. That's kinda rough.

Anyone care to venture whether a BRS, if deployed early, would have done anything at all in such circumstances? Just curious because so many folks I think believe ...hey...if TSHTF ... my go to hell plan is simple...just deploy and all will be well...

What's that old saying...Doctor knows best ? So what would happen to the good Doctor and his fancy Cirrus if the BRS deployed in such turbulence.??

Just curious.

This thread reminded me of a chat one day with George Kitchen, in Cold Bay, AK. George pulled out a photo....Obviously a Polaroid. It was a photo of a mountain peak, taken through the windshield of a Super Cub...George's favorite mount....a rather unremarkable shot, actually, till George told me to look at the altimeter.....which read 20,700 ft. "Mount McKinley???" I asked. "Yep, south summit."

I asked him how the hey he got a Cub that high? His response was "Big north wind."

"So, how was the ride down the south side of the mountain?" I asked. "Oh, MY!" Was all he said about that. George was a master of understatement, and that was about as close to an expletive that I ever heard George use.

George was the guy who Don Sheldon called to fly cover for Sheldon when he was headed for a high rescue, and George pulled Sheldon off the mountain several times after accidents.

Good topic, in any case.

MTV

This is a great topic. On another board I mentioned on a recent trip through the Columbia Gorge in my 57 182A that was very turbulent, I looked out at those old wings & wondered just how strong they really were.

Sailplanes have been mentioned. I'm a CFI/glider (& airplane). One thing that's saved my rear a few times is this: When you're in a strong downdraft increase airspeed...this will get you out of the down air quicker. The ride might be more miserable but you'll get to better air quicker. It's kind of like spin recovery. Even though your nose is pointing down...pushing it forward will get the wing flying again.

I've been a pilot for 45 years & I find as I age, turbulence bothers me more than it used to.

Maybe it's the "no old bold pilots" saying.

Rob, don't worry...Your Maule ain't gonna come apart...I was downwind once of Mt. Shasta with Ray Maule delivering one...It was so rough that he and I both were on the controls...We landed safely in Bend... I have a lot of faith in the strength of the Maule..

Flymac wrote:Rob, don't worry...Your Maule ain't gonna come apart...I was downwind once of Mt. Shasta with Ray Maule delivering one...It was so rough that he and I both were on the controls...We landed safely in Bend... I have a lot of faith in the strength of the Maule..

Two friends died in a Maule M-7 when the top wing skins departed.

Extreme turbulence can be very damaging.

MTV

A Cessna 172 had a wing ripped off with negative Gs. A Florida thunderstorm.

saddletramp wrote:This is a great topic. On another board I mentioned on a recent trip through the Columbia Gorge in my 57 182A that was very turbulent, I looked out at those old wings & wondered just how strong they really were.

Sailplanes have been mentioned. I'm a CFI/glider (& airplane). One thing that's saved my rear a few times is this: When you're in a strong downdraft increase airspeed...this will get you out of the down air quicker. The ride might be more miserable but you'll get to better air quicker. It's kind of like spin recovery. Even though your nose is pointing down...pushing it forward will get the wing flying again.

I've been a pilot for 45 years & I find as I age, turbulence bothers me more than it used to.

Maybe it's the "no old bold pilots" saying.

Nice to see another Southeast Washington dweller here. Do you fly out of WW or Martin Field?

Mountain Doctor wrote:

saddletramp wrote:This is a great topic. On another board I mentioned on a recent trip through the Columbia Gorge in my 57 182A that was very turbulent, I looked out at those old wings & wondered just how strong they really were.

Sailplanes have been mentioned. I'm a CFI/glider (& airplane). One thing that's saved my rear a few times is this: When you're in a strong downdraft increase airspeed...this will get you out of the down air quicker. The ride might be more miserable but you'll get to better air quicker. It's kind of like spin recovery. Even though your nose is pointing down...pushing it forward will get the wing flying again.

I've been a pilot for 45 years & I find as I age, turbulence bothers me more than it used to.

Maybe it's the "no old bold pilots" saying.

Nice to see another Southeast Washington dweller here. Do you fly out of WW or Martin Field?

I'm based at Martin. I'm in the process of starting a glider operation here. I'm hoping to get the sailplane bought soon & hope to be in operation by spring. I owned a similar operation up in Ephrata during the early 90's. I thought about a trike Maule for a tow plane too. I would have preferred a tailwheel tow plane but there's getting to less tailwheel guys around.

My wife & I hope to get out and fly to some of the mountain strips in our 182 also.