MontanaT-craft wrote: Won't the Dynon D2 do the same thing for you at 1/3 the price?

The turn coordinator will also hopefully do the job...and it's free, I already have it.

The turn coordinator and the artificial horizon have more bells and whistles than the old turn and bank instrument. With the old turn and bank instrument, very slight turns are easy to discern because the needle is no longer straight up. Just like the visual horizon, the artificial horizon or little airplane appears to be level even when we are in a slight turn. That kind of situational awareness is important when there is no visual horizon.

Add on features are fine, if the original mission is still accomplished as well. "It has a built in spice rack," is not always the best feature.

From an instrument flying standpoint, whether full panel or partial panel, I honestly cannot tell the difference. The 1973 Skylane that I took most of my IR training in back in 1975 had a turn coordinator. The 1970 Skylane that I was partnered in at the same time had a turn & bank. Most of the airplanes that I instructed in, and all of the planes I flew SE charter in, had turn coordinators. My current airplane has a turn & bank. In several hundred hours of actual IMC, in all of these various airplanes, it hasn't meant a whit of difference to me. But that's me, YMMV.

Re: whether the T&B or turn coordinator is electric or vacuum: if the panel is IFR qualified, it is required to have two different sources to turn the gyros if one of the sources is vacuum. So the AI and DG will be typically vacuum (or pressure in Beeches) and the T&B or turn coordinator will be electric. I don't doubt that there are vacuum T&Bs out there, but I've never seen one in a legal IFR panel.

Cary

Cary,

My fuss is probably caused by over 400 actual in Hueys w/o any autopilot help. Not the best instrument platform but worked if you stayed dynamic and proactive and shared the stick and anti-torque pedal time with your co-pilot. Concentration on AH would get real scary. RMI and T&B got scanned much more often than AH. I guess the little airplane in the turn coordinator reminds me too much of the AH.

Contact

I haven't the slightest idea which is preferable in IMC but if I ever find my self in an inverted flat spin, I want the turn coordinator; regardless of the weather outside. In fact, I have a vacuum powered one with a fresh overhaul tag dated 1990 something. It came from a DH Chipmunk.
The following is from an article on The Muller-Beggs Emergency Spin Recover Procedure.

"Should you have no visual outside reference, the Turn Coordinator will always indicate the correct direction of yaw [from the pilots point of view] even if you are inverted, allowing the correct recovery rudder to be applied. If the needle is hard left, apply opposite “right” rudder. Remember, rudder must always be applied opposite to yaw. Do not pay any attention to the ball as this only indicates slip, not yaw, and may vary either way depending on the centre of rotation and type of spin that you are in. ie. incipient, un-stable, stable, flat, etc. One slight problem here, many aerobatic aircraft are not fitted with a turn and slip indicator." Neither an artificial horizon nor a turn and bank will help you if disoriented in a spin.

The whole article is located here: http://www.ozaeros.net//spin/beard.htm It contains the following summary:

Situation awareness is critical when undertaking spin training.
The sky above is as useless as the runway behind.
The standard spin recovery is:
· Close the throttle and ailerons neutral.
· Identify the direction of yaw and apply full opposite rudder. Sufficient time must be allowed for the rudder to take affect.
· Lower the nose. Progressively move the stick from aft, to full forward, when spinning upright, or from forward, to full aft, when spinning inverted. Do not rush lowering the nose, and expect a fully developed spin to take up to three or four rotations to stop spinning.
· When the rotation stops, neutralize the controls, roll to wings level, and then ease out of the dive.

Mister 701,

I didn't know that. I sure was lucky not to have gotten into an inverted flat spin in a Huey. The tactical situation is always fluid, but that one sure slipped up on me. It hurts my back just to watch high power to weight airplanes do acrobatics.

Contact

Well, it's not hard to find oneself in an upright spin (especially if you're an instructor and your student is as ham handed as a couple of mine were), it's really hard to find yourself unintentionally in an inverted flat spin. On the other hand, if a pilot flies in IMC at all, it's not very hard to find oneself interested in what the turn coordinator or turn & bank tells you--and for me, they tell me the same thing. As I said, YMMV, i.e., you may find one or the other gives you some nuance information that I just don't see.

Cary

Let's start a list of Famous Last Words.......
"I'll never find myself in a spin in IMC"

Long ago I was taught...

Most GA gyros will tumble/precess if inverted or banked excessively. Even after a short spin the errors exceed IMC requirements.

In training my CFI said only look at the turn coordinator for direction of spin under the hood. The other gyros produce erroneous indications. Not sure if "glass" is the same. But, anyway..

Pretty extreme "What if". But, good understanding is important.

Disclaimer: I have no empirical references from the FAA or manufactures. Just saying what I was introduced to.

Cary wrote:YMMV, i.e., you may find one or the other gives you some nuance information that I just don't see.

Cary

Ditto.

I agree with Cary - for a back-country airplane it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

But for aeros, it's a no brainier for the T/B needle - especially if the airplane is designed to fly inverted, the pilot will want to master spin entry and recovery in any attitude.

N-Jacko wrote:I agree with Cary - for a back-country airplane it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

But for aeros, it's a no brainier for the T/B needle - especially if the airplane is designed to fly inverted, the pilot will want to master spin entry and recovery in any attitude.

FWIW, I decided to quit flying inverted in my P172D.

Cary