I see Contact and perhaps some others frequently criticizing the Practical Test Standards, in favor of what I assume would be a more comprehensive standard for airmanship.
"Teach 'em to really fly the plane!" Well, I an't argue with the sentiment. Spin training is no longer required, though I and many others I'm sure feel that the entry into a spin is a critical piece of knowledge and experience. Many of my most valued gems of experience have been learned outside the context of formal training, like stuff that really would have been useful in my Private training regarding the finer points of flying the wing. And the list goes on with all the stuff that pilots should know, but don't when they emerge from a Part 61 or even 141 program with their certificate. The career pilot culture and the institutionalization of training that props it up is like any other discipline in the world: A standard must be designed and met, otherwise no one can assume a base level of competence.
So when you say "team 'em to really fly the plane," there is no hard definition or parameters for that. What is a "real pilot?" The salty old dogs who understand what it might mean can only pass it along one student at a time. And when it's required for a third party to evaluate competence, what standard do they use? A more comprehensive PTS isn't going to use one guy's lexicon of "zoom reserve" and "gravity thrust" as fun as those terms might be. Check airmen the world around, despite having their personal techniques for making sure their guys are competent, have to have some baseline for evaluation, otherwise those checkrides would be like a first lesson.
Imagine if the scenario were exaggerated to the point where I trained in a remote nation so far removed from the US and ICAO that my terminology was completely different. "Now I will smurf the go thing so our relative fluid velocity hits the applied force threshold. We'll watch the dialclocky for jerky time." What in the fuck are you talking about, man?! Are you Australian? North Shore Oahu?
I'm laughing as I write this but my point is that a standard will always be required for pilot training and evaluation, otherwise you could never depend on fellow pilots having the same baseline knowledge. And standard terminology should be adhered to.
These opinions are the philosophical meanderings of a sub-1000 hr private pilot and do no reflect any official position of Backcountry Pilot, LLC.
Turn to final
Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:58 pm
Re: Turn to final
If we start from the proposition that all of us are and will remain students throughout our flying lives, then we have to be open to learning. We can't begin to learn all there is to know just by doing it ourselves, but we can get a leg up by being taught by those who know more than we do. We can't do that by being closed minded, nor if we think somehow that we've learned all there is to know.
For instance, I was a relatively low time CFII when I decided to take aerobatic lessons back in the early 80s. I was a pretty competent pilot, but in some respects I had the super pilot syndrome--I thought I was better than I was. Very quickly I was disabused of that belief, flying that simple little airplane in ways that I'd only seen others do. I wasn't very good at it, but I learned a whole lot in a basic, 10 hour course. One day, I got to fly with one of the very best, Betty Stewart, who was the only woman to win the World Aerobatics Championship title 2 years running. That's when I realized that I'd never be a competitive aerobatics performer, because I couldn't begin to fly as well as she could--in that airplane, doing that kind of flying.
But with that basic aerobatics training, I learned so much about what makes an airplane do what it does, and I became much better at making it do what I wanted it to do. Just like Wes did when he required the new hire pilots to fly around with the gauges covered until they could get a feel for the airplane, and like Jim did when he taught low level energy management techniques, my aerobatics training taught me life saving capabilities that I certainly didn't learn over the years of training for my private, commercial, instrument, and both levels of instructor.
There's always something to learn. No matter what our training or experience level, we have to be aware that we will never know it all.
Cary
For instance, I was a relatively low time CFII when I decided to take aerobatic lessons back in the early 80s. I was a pretty competent pilot, but in some respects I had the super pilot syndrome--I thought I was better than I was. Very quickly I was disabused of that belief, flying that simple little airplane in ways that I'd only seen others do. I wasn't very good at it, but I learned a whole lot in a basic, 10 hour course. One day, I got to fly with one of the very best, Betty Stewart, who was the only woman to win the World Aerobatics Championship title 2 years running. That's when I realized that I'd never be a competitive aerobatics performer, because I couldn't begin to fly as well as she could--in that airplane, doing that kind of flying.
But with that basic aerobatics training, I learned so much about what makes an airplane do what it does, and I became much better at making it do what I wanted it to do. Just like Wes did when he required the new hire pilots to fly around with the gauges covered until they could get a feel for the airplane, and like Jim did when he taught low level energy management techniques, my aerobatics training taught me life saving capabilities that I certainly didn't learn over the years of training for my private, commercial, instrument, and both levels of instructor.
There's always something to learn. No matter what our training or experience level, we have to be aware that we will never know it all.
Cary
"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth..., put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee
Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:27 pm
Re: Turn to final
Cary wrote:If we start from the proposition that all of us are and will remain students throughout our flying lives, then we have to be open to learning. We can't begin to learn all there is to know just by doing it ourselves, but we can get a leg up by being taught by those who know more than we do. We can't do that by being closed minded, nor if we think somehow that we've learned all there is to know.
There's always something to learn. No matter what our training or experience level, we have to be aware that we will never know it all.
This is my philosophy, and feel it's the only way to truly stay proficient with flying. Treating every flight as a training flight and evaluating myself on the drive home has helped me ingrain good technique, and stay humble.
I've got a friend who went flying with me a few times, and figured out that the whole "airman" thing is a whole lot easier than people make it out to be. He took some lessons, constantly argued with the instructor, and eventually soloed after 12 hours or so. He then flew two more times solo, and proceded to scare the crap outta himself hitting a little downer on short final. Hasn't been in the cockpit since.
I compare that to my Dad who after having over 12k hours in many different planes, got his tailwheel endorsement and checked out in his new 170A last week. He sat there with the instructor and took everything in as if he was a rookie, asking questions and taking notes the entire time. In the evenings he came home with the POH and made sure he didn't miss a thing. Always a student...
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Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:04 pm
Re: Turn to final
CenterHillAg wrote:[
I compare that to my Dad who after having over 12k hours in many different planes, got his tailwheel endorsement and checked out in his new 170A last week. He sat there with the instructor and took everything in as if he was a rookie, asking questions and taking notes the entire time. In the evenings he came home with the POH and made sure he didn't miss a thing. Always a student...
That's awesome.
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Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:34 pm
Re: Turn to final
Headoutdaairplane,
My second spray season I leased a Pawnee that had no pitot. I knew what the answer would be if I asked about that: If you need an airspeed indicator, you should not be here. I found it to be so much better than using one, I later started zero time Ag students without the airspeed indicator. They didn't get to use it until after solo.
The idea that a lot of this stuff is advanced is false. It is not advanced, just different. If taught first, it is just as easy or easier. Whoever mentioned the fifty year old is correct. We don't all have the same mental flexibility at that age. Older gentlemen and high time Commercial pilots must be taught with this in mind. We internalize what is taught first most. This is unfortunate for those who end up working low after accumulating many hours high. The flying is absolutely the same. Because they are not needed except for takeoff and landing, safe maneuvering flight techniques are not taught, indoctrinated, internalized, etc. We play like we have practiced. We do not rise to the situation. That is why maneuvering flight, including takeoff and landing, is so dangerous for those who have not been indoctrinated in it.
You younger Alaska guys had to unlearn stuff that got in the way. Hopefully you didn't have a lot of corporate or airline time when you started. That is the harder way to do it, but you got it done. Same with most pilots who try Ag as a second career. It can be done, but it is not the best way to do it.
I will never convince the establishment that this stuff should be taught first. That is not going to happen. Hopefully young guys and even older guys can look at it and make good judgement as to what is best for them.
Best regards,
Contact
My second spray season I leased a Pawnee that had no pitot. I knew what the answer would be if I asked about that: If you need an airspeed indicator, you should not be here. I found it to be so much better than using one, I later started zero time Ag students without the airspeed indicator. They didn't get to use it until after solo.
The idea that a lot of this stuff is advanced is false. It is not advanced, just different. If taught first, it is just as easy or easier. Whoever mentioned the fifty year old is correct. We don't all have the same mental flexibility at that age. Older gentlemen and high time Commercial pilots must be taught with this in mind. We internalize what is taught first most. This is unfortunate for those who end up working low after accumulating many hours high. The flying is absolutely the same. Because they are not needed except for takeoff and landing, safe maneuvering flight techniques are not taught, indoctrinated, internalized, etc. We play like we have practiced. We do not rise to the situation. That is why maneuvering flight, including takeoff and landing, is so dangerous for those who have not been indoctrinated in it.
You younger Alaska guys had to unlearn stuff that got in the way. Hopefully you didn't have a lot of corporate or airline time when you started. That is the harder way to do it, but you got it done. Same with most pilots who try Ag as a second career. It can be done, but it is not the best way to do it.
I will never convince the establishment that this stuff should be taught first. That is not going to happen. Hopefully young guys and even older guys can look at it and make good judgement as to what is best for them.
Best regards,
Contact
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Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:25 pm
Re: Turn to final
Another point to make is that being able to make a turn without loosing altitude is critical when the ceiling is 200ft AGL. It is not just a IFR or test skill. You need to have the bag of tricks full and know how to adjust depending on ALL the factors involved and buy the way you just picked up some carb ice. 
. The first time I did a landing patten at 100 ft I thought I was going to die!!! Go high and learn where the failure point is and how/if the plane talks to you before that point. Than come close to the ground and fly like the eagles!!!! 
Old guy still learning.
DENNY
. The first time I did a landing patten at 100 ft I thought I was going to die!!! Go high and learn where the failure point is and how/if the plane talks to you before that point. Than come close to the ground and fly like the eagles!!!! Old guy still learning. DENNY
DENNY
Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:01 pm
Re: Turn to final
.
cstolaircraft wrote:
How can I with less then a hundred hours know more about flying then a cfi?
Japanese: さるも き から おちる saru mo ki kara ochiru Literal: Even monkeys fall from trees.
English Equivalent: Everyone makes mistakes.
One of the most famous Japanese proverbs out there
Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:43 am
Re: Turn to final
Good cartoon Denali. "If we learn from our mistakes, shouldn't I try to make as many as possible?"
Answer: Yes for those situations that lend themselves to dynamic, proactive control movement or burst on target. No for those situations that lend themselves to static reactive control movement or creeping fire.
Stalls lend themselves to both techniques. We practice stalls dynamically and proactively to find out exactly where they are, what happens then, and how to recover from unwanted stalls and spins. Yet, stalling is a very useful and kind way to get the airplane onto the surface without banging it down. Here we are interested in static reactive gradual slowing of the airplane and stalling on the numbers from one inch, or static reactive holding off and slowing of the airplane until it decides to stall.
Because I started instructing at Flagstaff while finishing my high school teaching certificate and then Gallup during the school year and the San Louis Valley summers, I hated teaching stalls. I felt really bad about burning so much of a students instruction time just climbing up in a AA1-A, C-150, or C-140. I began spending more time teaching both mush recognition and approach to landing at the same time. This lead right into using the apparent brisk walk rate of closure approach, which I had learned in Army helicopter school, for airplanes as well. It was a win win.
Zane, I'm not using different language to show off (perhaps a little.) Mainly I am trying to get the student's attention. A science teacher at Tohatchi occasionally stood on his head on his desk to get the student's attention. I liked it but was a little too stuffy to try it. It is amazing how fast you can get a pilot's attention by saying something different than what all the cool pilots say. I guess my main technique is to be loud and obnoxious. I am having second thoughts about that in this political season.
Answer: Yes for those situations that lend themselves to dynamic, proactive control movement or burst on target. No for those situations that lend themselves to static reactive control movement or creeping fire.
Stalls lend themselves to both techniques. We practice stalls dynamically and proactively to find out exactly where they are, what happens then, and how to recover from unwanted stalls and spins. Yet, stalling is a very useful and kind way to get the airplane onto the surface without banging it down. Here we are interested in static reactive gradual slowing of the airplane and stalling on the numbers from one inch, or static reactive holding off and slowing of the airplane until it decides to stall.
Because I started instructing at Flagstaff while finishing my high school teaching certificate and then Gallup during the school year and the San Louis Valley summers, I hated teaching stalls. I felt really bad about burning so much of a students instruction time just climbing up in a AA1-A, C-150, or C-140. I began spending more time teaching both mush recognition and approach to landing at the same time. This lead right into using the apparent brisk walk rate of closure approach, which I had learned in Army helicopter school, for airplanes as well. It was a win win.
Zane, I'm not using different language to show off (perhaps a little.) Mainly I am trying to get the student's attention. A science teacher at Tohatchi occasionally stood on his head on his desk to get the student's attention. I liked it but was a little too stuffy to try it. It is amazing how fast you can get a pilot's attention by saying something different than what all the cool pilots say. I guess my main technique is to be loud and obnoxious. I am having second thoughts about that in this political season.
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Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:44 am
Re: Turn to final
I'm struggling to come up with a practical application for a 60 degree bank turn to final at 60 knots. Maybe you guys could enlighten me as to why one would do such a turn for reasons other than showing off.
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Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:23 am
Re: Turn to final
Waterboy wrote:I'm struggling to come up with a practical application for a 60 degree bank turn to final at 60 knots. Maybe you guys could enlighten me as to why one would do such a turn for reasons other than showing off.
I don't think it's so much of a need to do it as it is a need to not be afraid of it and understand what's happening when you do it.
Or, if you ever find yourself in that situation, how to deal with it.
Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:57 am
Re: Turn to final
It is a unthinking thing for crop dusters and pipeline patrol pilots who make energy management turns all day long. It would not be necessary at the airport except that we wait for all other traffic to depart or land and then drive (low) right for the runway and make whatever turn is necessary to line up.
If you see it, yes, somebody is showing off. We try to avoid being seen. A Pawnee or patrol 172 never gets above 200' AGL. A course reversal from that altitude requires a 60 degree or greater bank and lots of rudder. We have to get the turn done before going over wires or hitting the ground. And we have to allow the nose to go down to prevent load factor and stall problems. 200' is a lot of altitude.
Either descending or energy management yo yo, either shallow or steep bank, either low or high, the turn is easy and comfortable. At 1g, it is less pressure than a level turn at any bank angle. It should not be overused with passengers, as discussed above. However, gentle bank energy management turns are more comfortable and safer than gentle bank level or climbing turns. In the turn to crosswind and the turn to downwind in the pattern, one can make the turn energy management and then return to the climb. Just that one thing would reduce takeoff and departure stalls considerably.
If you see it, yes, somebody is showing off. We try to avoid being seen. A Pawnee or patrol 172 never gets above 200' AGL. A course reversal from that altitude requires a 60 degree or greater bank and lots of rudder. We have to get the turn done before going over wires or hitting the ground. And we have to allow the nose to go down to prevent load factor and stall problems. 200' is a lot of altitude.
Either descending or energy management yo yo, either shallow or steep bank, either low or high, the turn is easy and comfortable. At 1g, it is less pressure than a level turn at any bank angle. It should not be overused with passengers, as discussed above. However, gentle bank energy management turns are more comfortable and safer than gentle bank level or climbing turns. In the turn to crosswind and the turn to downwind in the pattern, one can make the turn energy management and then return to the climb. Just that one thing would reduce takeoff and departure stalls considerably.
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Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:29 am
Re: Turn to final
Bagarre wrote:Waterboy wrote:I'm struggling to come up with a practical application for a 60 degree bank turn to final at 60 knots. Maybe you guys could enlighten me as to why one would do such a turn for reasons other than showing off.
I don't think it's so much of a need to do it as it is a need to not be afraid of it and understand what's happening when you do it.
Or, if you ever find yourself in that situation, how to deal with it.
I agree I usually don't go around doing 70 deg turns to final although I do have a tighter pattern then most so I do steepish turns.
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Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:57 pm
Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:51 pm
Re: Turn to final
I'm struggling to come up with a practical application for a 60 degree bank turn to final at 60 knots. Maybe you guys could enlighten me as to why one would do such a turn for reasons other than showing off.
Tight canyon turn with no ground clearance ahead and plenty behind. Or downwind to final in a tight canyon. Many land long or miss at Johnson Creek because they are not comfortable with losing lots of altitude with that turn.
Tight canyon turn with no ground clearance ahead and plenty behind. Or downwind to final in a tight canyon. Many land long or miss at Johnson Creek because they are not comfortable with losing lots of altitude with that turn.
Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:47 am
Re: Turn to final
Coyote wrote:I'm struggling to come up with a practical application for a 60 degree bank turn to final at 60 knots. Maybe you guys could enlighten me as to why one would do such a turn for reasons other than showing off.
Tight canyon turn with no ground clearance ahead and plenty behind. Or downwind to final in a tight canyon. Many land long or miss at Johnson Creek because they are not comfortable with losing lots of altitude with that turn.
Flying a really tight pattern is nice to do. Also if you are pretty high you can loose a good bit of altitude doing it.
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But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up on wings as eagles... Isaiah 40:31
Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:05 am
Re: Turn to final
cstolaircraft wrote:Coyote wrote:I'm struggling to come up with a practical application for a 60 degree bank turn to final at 60 knots. Maybe you guys could enlighten me as to why one would do such a turn for reasons other than showing off.
Tight canyon turn with no ground clearance ahead and plenty behind. Or downwind to final in a tight canyon. Many land long or miss at Johnson Creek because they are not comfortable with losing lots of altitude with that turn.
Flying a really tight pattern is nice to do. Also if you are pretty high you can loose a good bit of altitude doing it.
True, but you can fly REALLY tight patterns without the NEED for 60 degree bank angles. If you NEED to bank 60 degrees on a base to final turn, you should opt to execute a missed approach, not try to salvage a poor approach.
I would also point out that, as with all things aviation, you simply cannot make blanket "always" kinds of statements. One of the wild cards on these turns to final is wind, as in gusty wind. Insert some really gusty winds to your base to final turn and that 60 degree bank can get you in trouble pretty fast. Again, it's all about load factor, and gusts can almost instantly change those load factors.
I agree that pilots should be able to demonstrate steep turns....at altitude.
I have found in training numerous pilots in off airport operations that almost everyone gets very comfortable at very low altitudes really fast. What then happens is that almost to a person, they start getting sloppy when low. There is nothing wrong with maneuvering while low, and when working an off airport landing site you need to be low to visualize the character and obstacles in the LZ. But, you can maneuver low without dramatic bank angles, and keep the load factors on the wing relatively low. There's really no need to accelerate the loads in most cases.
Again, performing a good landing, whether at an airport or off airport is heavily dependent on good planning and preparation. If you screw up the approach, it's really hard to pull off a good landing, where you want it, and at the proper speed. In that case, it's time to go around.
Practicing trying to salvage a botched approach is to me a pointless exercise. What you need to practice is planning and executing a superb approach......EVERY time. That's the key to successful operations around the LZ. Bear in mind that there are landing zones that offer no safe option to go around.
MTV
Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:44 am
Re: Turn to final
Good points MTV, especially about pilots getting comfortable quickly with flying low. Unfortunately, they are not as quick to realize that now allowing the nose to go down in turns, shallow or steep, and using the wind as an ally (upwind turns) rather than an enemy (downwind turns) becomes much more important. This is especially important because attention is almost entirely outside the airplane.
Not slowing up in combination with minimumizing bank can lead to going wide and encountering obstacles or terrain. Add to this a significant downwind condition and we may have the third or fourth or fifth thing piling up which can lead to pulling back and creating load factor and perhaps mush or stall. We can end up creating what we were trying to prevent. Steep, no load, turns are physically no different that shallow, no load turns. The problem that can slip up on pilots who are uncomfortable with steep, no load turns is that they may choose less safe options.
Where pulling back before the turn can be helpful, pulling back in a turn that is not getting the job done can be very dangerous. In this latter perhaps poor planning is the problem. From that point on, however, and also in irregular and tight situations, the ability to comfortably turn steeply while allowing the nose to go down has been very helpful, in my experience. So much so that I make it a part of normal training rather than waiting to make it advanced training.
All that said, when steep, no load turns are not needed, they are not needed. Like using the rudder in all turns, I like to see that students have the energy and g management concept by allowing the nose to go down a bit in shallow turns as well.
And I realize, Mike, that training in irregular stuff can lead to non-compliance in other areas. It is way too late for me, but I have an old Ag student, Slim Kingsley, who is squeaky clean and a really agile pilot as well. I used to think he was a little scary careful, but he is just a really good, safe, pilot with a really calm demeanor. You and Cary should come by MO9 sometime and see Slim. You would see that even if ol contact is crazy, not all of his students are.
Best regards,
Jim
Not slowing up in combination with minimumizing bank can lead to going wide and encountering obstacles or terrain. Add to this a significant downwind condition and we may have the third or fourth or fifth thing piling up which can lead to pulling back and creating load factor and perhaps mush or stall. We can end up creating what we were trying to prevent. Steep, no load, turns are physically no different that shallow, no load turns. The problem that can slip up on pilots who are uncomfortable with steep, no load turns is that they may choose less safe options.
Where pulling back before the turn can be helpful, pulling back in a turn that is not getting the job done can be very dangerous. In this latter perhaps poor planning is the problem. From that point on, however, and also in irregular and tight situations, the ability to comfortably turn steeply while allowing the nose to go down has been very helpful, in my experience. So much so that I make it a part of normal training rather than waiting to make it advanced training.
All that said, when steep, no load turns are not needed, they are not needed. Like using the rudder in all turns, I like to see that students have the energy and g management concept by allowing the nose to go down a bit in shallow turns as well.
And I realize, Mike, that training in irregular stuff can lead to non-compliance in other areas. It is way too late for me, but I have an old Ag student, Slim Kingsley, who is squeaky clean and a really agile pilot as well. I used to think he was a little scary careful, but he is just a really good, safe, pilot with a really calm demeanor. You and Cary should come by MO9 sometime and see Slim. You would see that even if ol contact is crazy, not all of his students are.
Best regards,
Jim
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Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:47 pm
Re: Turn to final
MTV just said it better than I did when I said that "I have yet to have to do a 60 bank turn in the pattern". You can keep a very tight pattern without getting close to a 60 degree bank even in Contact's downwind base to final scenario. I have flown into many small, tight landing areas with geological barriers and still haven't needed to do it. That I could, should I need to, is without a doubt.
Trent will tell you that I have my share of self-confidence borne from a lot of flying and my share of mistakes, including bent metal. To a person, all the good pilots that I know are self-confident, usually arising from that same combination (although the majority without bent metal). Self-confidence coming from reading forums with little actual pilot experience (no matter how good an instructor has taught you) can lead to riskier than needed behavior. To me, Contact's posts notwithstanding, 60 degree bank turns to final are riskier than needed and unnecessary. Can the OP do them? of course, I just don't understand why.
Trent will tell you that I have my share of self-confidence borne from a lot of flying and my share of mistakes, including bent metal. To a person, all the good pilots that I know are self-confident, usually arising from that same combination (although the majority without bent metal). Self-confidence coming from reading forums with little actual pilot experience (no matter how good an instructor has taught you) can lead to riskier than needed behavior. To me, Contact's posts notwithstanding, 60 degree bank turns to final are riskier than needed and unnecessary. Can the OP do them? of course, I just don't understand why.
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Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:13 pm
Re: Turn to final
Headoutdaplane wrote:MTV just said it better than I did when I said that "I have yet to have to do a 60 bank turn in the pattern". You can keep a very tight pattern without getting close to a 60 degree bank even in Contact's downwind base to final scenario. I have flown into many small, tight landing areas with geological barriers and still haven't needed to do it. That I could, should I need to, is without a doubt.
Trent will tell you that I have my share of self-confidence borne from a lot of flying and my share of mistakes, including bent metal. To a person, all the good pilots that I know are self-confident, usually arising from that same combination (although the majority without bent metal). Self-confidence coming from reading forums with little actual pilot experience (no matter how good an instructor has taught you) can lead to riskier than needed behavior. To me, Contact's posts notwithstanding, 60 degree bank turns to final are riskier than needed and unnecessary. Can the OP do them? of course, I just don't understand why.
A couple of years after I'd left the USAF, my first instructor was discharged and came by Laramie and stayed with us for a couple of days. By then, I'd run up a couple hundred more hours from when I took my private checkride and had had my commercial for a few months. The partnership we'd recently formed had just bought our 70 Skylane, and I had been asked to judge some boy scout "emergency signals" from the air, and then drop a coffee can to the troop with the winning results. So I asked my former instructor to go along. I flew up to the location, and then he flew during the circling around the troop location, so that I could judge the signals and drop the can.
When we came back to Laramie, I was flying. When I turned downwind to base, I banked about 40 degrees, and my former instructor said, "Hmmm. Steep turns in the pattern. You might want to watch that." That's all he said, but it caught my attention, because I admired him, his teaching, and his piloting.
FWIW, I tend to fly relatively close patterns. He had taught me to bisect the strut in a Cessna, and I still fly downwind close enough to do that under most circumstances. But it's really unusual for me to bank more than 30 degrees in the pattern, although I could if I needed to. I would rather shorten the time that the wings are level on base than bank so steeply that passengers would be uncomfortable. To me, that's one of the keys toward safe flying, to fly in a way that passengers aren't uncomfortable with the way I handle the airplane.
Cary
"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth..., put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee
Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:00 pm
Re: Turn to final
MTV and Headoutdaplane are right on (and very diplomatic I might add). I know this is going to sound a bit harsh but it’s not intended to be personal.
First a 70 or even 60 degree turn in a pattern to make the pattern smaller and loose altitude? That’s unnecessary and dangerous. Most of us here fly high wing aircraft, so in that steep a turn we’d lose sight of the airport, the traffic and the runway. Do that in the mountains and you’ll likely be a greasy spot in the trees.
FULL flaps (assuming 30+ degrees) AND a slip? If you find yourself needing both then go around, you’ve screwed up the approach.*** The amount of turbulence that comes off a wing with flaps down is pretty surprising. I’ve had friends tell me they can feel the turbulence off my 185 a quarter of a mile behind me-and choose not to remain in it. Get behind the SQ2 when its flaps are on the third or fourth notch and there is a good chance you’ll find yourself upside-down. Do you really want to subject the tail surfaces to both a slip and severe buffeting from full flaps?
Also a 100 hour pilot thinking he/she has any piloting skills at all is a height of over-confidence that is usually reserved for around 250 hours (hey I’ve been there as have most pilots). Eventually as the hours pile on you learn that you still have a ton to learn. The more you learn the more you realize there is to learn. Every thing about and around aviation is different every day, especially when it comes to backcountry and off-airport flying. As MTV said “you simply cannot make blanket "always" kinds of statements”, except when saying something is always different every time you fly.
*** And here is an example of why you can’t make blanket statements like the one I did above. There are two circumstances that immediately come to mind where I might have full or near full flaps down and find I need to kick her into a slip:
1. I’m coming in to land over an obstacle and need to be down now. At this point I’m really no longer on final, I am landing the plane so speed is much reduced which means the stress of the control surfaces is much reduced.
2. I screwed the pooch on a one-way, either because I misjudged, or the wind changed unexpectedly. Either way I need the plane down now as the other alternative is to crash- which still might happen, but at least it should be a more survivable crash.
And relating to stall speeds, bank angles, angle of attack, etc., my simple brain just remembers this: a wing that is not creating lift can not stall. Which simply put means if you have to do some of that tricky pilot s**t, unload the wings while you do it.
First a 70 or even 60 degree turn in a pattern to make the pattern smaller and loose altitude? That’s unnecessary and dangerous. Most of us here fly high wing aircraft, so in that steep a turn we’d lose sight of the airport, the traffic and the runway. Do that in the mountains and you’ll likely be a greasy spot in the trees.
FULL flaps (assuming 30+ degrees) AND a slip? If you find yourself needing both then go around, you’ve screwed up the approach.*** The amount of turbulence that comes off a wing with flaps down is pretty surprising. I’ve had friends tell me they can feel the turbulence off my 185 a quarter of a mile behind me-and choose not to remain in it. Get behind the SQ2 when its flaps are on the third or fourth notch and there is a good chance you’ll find yourself upside-down. Do you really want to subject the tail surfaces to both a slip and severe buffeting from full flaps?
Also a 100 hour pilot thinking he/she has any piloting skills at all is a height of over-confidence that is usually reserved for around 250 hours (hey I’ve been there as have most pilots). Eventually as the hours pile on you learn that you still have a ton to learn. The more you learn the more you realize there is to learn. Every thing about and around aviation is different every day, especially when it comes to backcountry and off-airport flying. As MTV said “you simply cannot make blanket "always" kinds of statements”, except when saying something is always different every time you fly.
*** And here is an example of why you can’t make blanket statements like the one I did above. There are two circumstances that immediately come to mind where I might have full or near full flaps down and find I need to kick her into a slip:
1. I’m coming in to land over an obstacle and need to be down now. At this point I’m really no longer on final, I am landing the plane so speed is much reduced which means the stress of the control surfaces is much reduced.
2. I screwed the pooch on a one-way, either because I misjudged, or the wind changed unexpectedly. Either way I need the plane down now as the other alternative is to crash- which still might happen, but at least it should be a more survivable crash.
And relating to stall speeds, bank angles, angle of attack, etc., my simple brain just remembers this: a wing that is not creating lift can not stall. Which simply put means if you have to do some of that tricky pilot s**t, unload the wings while you do it.
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- Location: Alaska
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