I know I know...another water skiing thread I had some discussion last fall with a few people on BCP about skiing with my luscombe in this thread but I decided to start a new thread in hopes that more people will respond.

A lot of discussion about water skiing has taken place but does anyone have anything to add when it comes to a low HP airplane on small tires?

Here are the basics that I have gathered: Ski speed is approximately the same speed that the tail rises on takeoff with zero forward pressure (~35mph in the Luscombe), tail high or low, doesn't matter, don't try it with being shown (will do) and I'll kill my self if I try in my Luscombe with little tires.

Anyone have anything to add?

Like I said in the other thread, the reason I want to know is because there are a lot of gravel bars around here that are long enough for my to play on but have zero margin for error and therefore I will never land them because I am a chicken. If I can become proficient at skiing and know what minimum speed I need to do it successfully I might be able to get into these places. I'm not talking about anything extreme here, I'm talking about not quite reaching flying speed and needing an extra 10ft of runway.

I have dipped 8.00s in to the river on landing in a 170, but never with the intention of using hydrodynamic lift to support any portion of the weight of the airplane. The wheels were on firm ground the instant they left the water, which eliminates the 10-50 feet that can be burned prior to touch down due to small gusts or slightly excessive energy of any sort. On takeoff, if you are working with margins so slim that you rely on lift from small tires, you are braver than I and I hope that you can swim. I do know that in the 170, if I gave it any extra forward pressure or stalled the wing I would have gone ass over in to an emergency situation. There is a big difference between dragging tires in extremely calm conditions and relying on the tires to support the airplane. I would not recommend the latter unless you have an arrangement where you can familiarize yourself with that transition with little to no risk, like the opportunity to skim two to three inch deep water for a hundred feet or more. Like a few other things in aviation, if you do practice these techniques, statistically you will eventually end up in an unfavorable situation.

Don't forget to video it with a submersable camera.

Submersible camera...check.

Thanks Scolopax for your comments. Skiing to landing like you talked about is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I think maybe a similar thing can be applied to takeoff, maybe not. My plane will fly in ground effect at just under 50mph but I don't usually try to get it then air till about 55. This is to prevent any sink I might encounter after lift off. I'm thinking if I can hit 50mph before I hit the water then the tires won't really be supporting any weight and I can accelerate to 55 then lift off. I tried this technique once and got lucky, I'm hoping to develop the skills so I won't have to rely on luck again.

Oh, I can't swim. Think I can dog paddle so shore or maybe I should just wear my whitewater PFD

Your first post suggests you have determined your airplane will stay floating on water at 35 and your second post suggests you need 50 to fly in ground effect.

On little tires, with no horsepower to keep you up, I would be very skeptical of trying to knock 15mph off of your minimum flying speed. I would be surprised to know you got a 5 mph difference (which is still huge when we are talking about getting in short)

Far more concerning to me in your boat would be getting back off. I don't use water to get in much, because more than once I have accidentally gotten onto something almost too short to get back off. On landing if it gets right to the gnats edge of being too short, you will roll into the water on the far end, swing it around into a semi ground loop, or chop the power out a little too far and penetrate as you roll on to the bar ( still not great feeling if you do it too far out or hit an unexpected cut bank) all of these suck, but don't kill the day. On T/O if you are just a tad behind the game (or the great wind you had diminishes by just a touch) you run the risk of penetrating out in river... That's going to suck.
The above scenario doesn't come in to play much for super cubs, 180's, or Maules, etc because on take off we are at full go, and have lots of excess horsepower, you don't. In other words, the spread between the power we are using getting in vs getting out is pretty great, you don't have that luxury.

Another consideration for me would be the small tires. Maybe I'm just a dipstick, but I have hit more logs, boulders, Nheads, soft spots and so on landing on bars. I love it, and don't intend to give it up anytime soon, but the type of bar hopping I enjoy just doesn't lend it self to small tires... I can't see many ultra tight spots being that way... But then again that might just be the areas that I enjoy, or my ham fisted ness ?

Take care, Rob

I am no expert with little tires but I am pretty good with big ones. Here is what I have observed in my own take off runs with water as runway. If you misjudge you have no recourse but to continue until you can not, I have done a lot of take offs using water but once I scared the crap out of myself. It was to short of a gravel bar, landing was no problem but once I was there I was commited to get back off. Here is what I did, I taxied out into the water until the airplane was in about 10" of water, this gave me about 80 feet of actual gravel bar to get off of not counting the airplane being in the water (which was not much help), I was taking off up river, had I tried this down river I would have not made it for sure. When I hit the water on the upriver end on take off I was not hydroplanning and was not accelerating either, I started working the elevator to try and get the airplane on step so to speak and within a few hundred yards I finally stop plowing and started accelerating. This was the closest I have come to thinking I was swimming and my airplane was going to be helicpotered out. It was a very bad feeling that I will not soon forget. It is a lot easier judging using water to land then take off if you really intend to use it as run way and not just for showing off. My two cents, hope this helps or keeps you shinny side up.

Greg

Wheels, conventional landing gear...

For me water is more for alignment than to hydroplane on. I don't take it that far yet, maybe someday.

The guys that do hydroplane for TO/LDGs I watch closely. One fine day, hopefully, I can learn enough to do it. Yeah Baby!

How do you hydroplaning the little wheels with low horsepowers?

Very carefully.

Mauleguy,

I may be mistaken, but I think it was in Vol. 2 that you said you would not hydroplane tires that were smaller an 31's. Can you elaborate as to why not.

Also, can you tell me the hydroplaning GPS ground speed for 35's ad 31's in Bushwacker and your previous M5? It would be informative if I could get some numbers to bracket in a bit of a range on various tire sizes. Certainly there are variables, but gathering some data might be useful.

Thanks

Water skiing is about as much fun as you can have in an airplane.
My first time was a Stinson with 8.00's, at 80mph. Way fast..... but I was way scared. I headed up river on a long straight stretch and tried to grease it on....it felt like concrete as I bounced back into the air.
Full power and back around for take 2......80mph, I touched the water but this time I pushed the yoke forward to stay on the water, life is good, I'm cruising down the river thinking I had this skiing stuff figured out. I hadn't thought about the extra drag of the water and I was bleeding off airspeed fast and things got real mushy.....full power and back around for take 3.
Just like feeling your plane in the air you will start feeling the water.

A couple of months ago I got slow on the water going into a short gravel bar for the first time and had water going over the plane, I'm not sure what scared me the most, not being able to see or the seat of the pants feel.
Getting slow on water is like practicing stalls close to the ground, probably won't work out so well....unless you are really good.
Take it step by step and have fun!

With what I fly, water skiing speed and 'using water to land' speed are two very different things. Not so sure how that would equate to whee's airplane tho...
And again my opinion is if you get it slow enough to actually be using the water to your landing advantage, lack of horsepower is probably going to find you stuck there... Let me put it this way, getting a cub on a bar the size of a semi trailer really doesn't take much work if you use water. So you get the ole luscombe on a 200' bar (giving you several semi's here), think youre gonna get fast enough to light out across the water after that much roll? That's an honest question, because I don't know? But I'm thinking that if you had any more room, you'da been fine even without using water...

Another point, have you been on the sand at these places? sand texture varies as much around here as snow does in the high country. In another thread it was gospel to always land on the dry stuff... try that on the lower colorado and I can assure you you will be nosed in or upside down in the powder sugar within 20 yards... Then we have the muck. It has the consistency of brown snot. Shoots stuff everywhere ... through the tail, through the prop, then it rolls up in front of your wheels and chocks... and over you go... Damp sand, that's where it at on the river... Brown concrete... Where I'm going with all this is that the sand is going to affect your way off as much or more than anything else. If you don't know what it's like, and are actually using water to get in, you are rolling the dice. Not suggesting that's good, bad or indifferent, just be prepared to pay the piper if it all gets away from you... (or the helicopter, or the buddies who will fly in prop, struts gear etc....)

And at the end of the day if none of the above concerns you, you probably aren't landing in such a tight spot you really needed to use the water... and that's cool too, keep the speed up and water skii your heart out

Take care, Rob

I used to ski on 800x4 tires a lot with a 65 horse J3, but touched down fast, 80, 85, and couldn't hold that speed. It would gradually slow down to about 65 where it felt pretty soft, and I lifted back off. From a slow speed, I don't think here at this elevation that I could accelerate enough on takeoff to get off the water, it would drag ya in. Might be a whole different ballgame down lower, but, careful.

Rob wrote:Your first post suggests you have determined your airplane will stay floating on water at 35 and your second post suggests you need 50 to fly in ground effect.

On little tires, with no horsepower to keep you up, I would be very skeptical of trying to knock 15mph off of your minimum flying speed. I would be surprised to know you got a 5 mph difference (which is still huge when we are talking about getting in short)

I'm sure your right. 35mph came from a rule of thumb I read somewhere. I'm not planning on actually trying it at that speed, I was thinking 50mph would be the slowest.

Rob wrote: Another consideration for me would be the small tires. Maybe I'm just a dipstick, but I have hit more logs, boulders, Nheads, soft spots and so on landing on bars. I love it, and don't intend to give it up anytime soon, but the type of bar hopping I enjoy just doesn't lend it self to small tires... I can't see many ultra tight spots being that way... But then again that might just be the areas that I enjoy, or my ham fisted ness ?

Ultra tight for me and my plane are vastly different than it is to you and probably anyone else that does this kind of flying. Best I can do consistently is 600ft landing and slightly better on takeoff. The bars around here that size are pretty clean and the ones that aren't I've have had my bro and his buddies clean up a little while out fishing in a jet boat. I wish I could do something about my little tires but I can't. Salt Lake FSDO is never going to approve bush wheels on my Luscombe even if I put on Clevelands...I asked.

Mauleguy wrote:I am no expert with little tires but I am pretty good with big ones. Here is what I have observed in my own take off runs with water as runway. If you misjudge you have no recourse but to continue until you can not, I have done a lot of take offs using water but once I scared the crap out of myself. It was to short of a gravel bar, landing was no problem but once I was there I was commited to get back off. Here is what I did, I taxied out into the water until the airplane was in about 10" of water, this gave me about 80 feet of actual gravel bar to get off of not counting the airplane being in the water (which was not much help), I was taking off up river, had I tried this down river I would have not made it for sure. When I hit the water on the upriver end on take off I was not hydroplanning and was not accelerating either, I started working the elevator to try and get the airplane on step so to speak and within a few hundred yards I finally stop plowing and started accelerating. This was the closest I have come to thinking I was swimming and my airplane was going to be helicpotered out. It was a very bad feeling that I will not soon forget. It is a lot easier judging using water to land then take off if you really intend to use it as run way and not just for showing off. My two cents, hope this helps or keeps you shinny side up.

Talk about pucker factor. Thanks for sharing Greg.

Terry wrote:Water skiing is about as much fun as you can have in an airplane.
My first time was a Stinson with 8.00's, at 80mph. Way fast..... but I was way scared. I headed up river on a long straight stretch and tried to grease it on....it felt like concrete as I bounced back into the air.
Full power and back around for take 2......80mph, I touched the water but this time I pushed the yoke forward to stay on the water, life is good, I'm cruising down the river thinking I had this skiing stuff figured out. I hadn't thought about the extra drag of the water and I was bleeding off airspeed fast and things got real mushy.....full power and back around for take 3.
Just like feeling your plane in the air you will start feeling the water.

A couple of months ago I got slow on the water going into a short gravel bar for the first time and had water going over the plane, I'm not sure what scared me the most, not being able to see or the seat of the pants feel.
Getting slow on water is like practicing stalls close to the ground, probably won't work out so well....unless you are really good.
Take it step by step and have fun!

Coyote Ugly wrote:I used to ski on 800x4 tires a lot with a 65 horse J3, but touched down fast, 80, 85, and couldn't hold that speed. It would gradually slow down to about 65 where it felt pretty soft, and I lifted back off. From a slow speed, I don't think here at this elevation that I could accelerate enough on takeoff to get off the water, it would drag ya in. Might be a whole different ballgame down lower, but, careful.

I didn't think the drag while going that fast would be so high. Guess I was thinking if I'm just short of flying speed and kept the tail low then the drag wouldn't be much and I'd be able to get enough speed to off, maybe not.

Rob wrote:With what I fly, water skiing speed and 'using water to land' speed are two very different things. Not so sure how that would equate to whee's airplane tho...
And again my opinion is if you get it slow enough to actually be using the water to your landing advantage, lack of horsepower is probably going to find you stuck there... Let me put it this way, getting a cub on a bar the size of a semi trailer really doesn't take much work if you use water. So you get the ole luscombe on a 200' bar (giving you several semi's here), think youre gonna get fast enough to light out across the water after that much roll? That's an honest question, because I don't know? But I'm thinking that if you had any more room, you'da been fine even without using water...

No, with my skills and airplane I'd never make it with only 200ft of gravel bar. I know at my elevation (4740msl) best I can do consistently getting off is 550ft. If I had 540ft then maybe I would have enough speed to finish my roll on the water.

Rob wrote: Another point, have you been on the sand at these places?

The places I'm looking at are packed gravel/sand, mostly ping pong ball sized gravel. Perfect for destroying a horizontal stab.

Rob wrote:And at the end of the day if none of the above concerns you, you probably aren't landing in such a tight spot you really needed to use the water... and that's cool too, keep the speed up and water skii your heart out

I'd guess by your standards they are international airports but for me they are tight. I'd hope to not have to use water but I want to know how so that next time I find myself with not enough speed to fly and I head out across the water I'll have the skills to make it happen. Last time I got lucky.

Thanks for this great discussion guys!

Whee, Give ABW a call, talk to them about getting bigger tires, they know the drill pretty well, and different FSDO's have different rules!!
You just have to go for tundra tires, not bigger ones!!
GT

This video shows the what most of the gravel bars in my area look like.


Think I wanted to go swimming in this one.

If you leave the beach and hit the water slow you can instantly feel the drag.
Here is a good shot of the drag that water produces.

Not much extra dirt you are working with there Whee. Looks exciting!

"Water effect" = "Ground effect" is my first thought. The river provided the same effect as ground effect. Maybe even a slight increase because the river is much colder than the air this time of year, from mountain run-off

Whee, do you walk it first before that kind of commitment? Definitely ba##s to wall!

That's some beautiful farm country!