Rob wrote:'55, you are baddd....
Do people really have these conversations outside of the internet?

Sometimes I think we make this flying stuff wayyy more complicated than it really has to be... Very shortly after just learning to fly I gave up any thought as to what or why a three point or wheel landing even was

All I am ever concerned about when landing an airplane is Landing. Safety, and the next take off are pre requisites to that landing. The rest is just preference unless you are truly optimizing for a given parameter for example; flying an old ag plane with a geared motor that swings a prop so big you just need to keep it off the ground, or flying an airplane that is a tad short on tail surface and needs airflow to keep that tail active.

I think anyone who can't land with the tail up, tail down or anywhere in between just isn't proficient enough at that moment. Same goes for the ability to plant either main before the other. I think the notion behind the FAA's requirement to be able to land up on the mains, and down with your tail sagging is just for that purpose. To verify you can master the airplane's landing abilities. I am also of the opinion that any CFI that instructs these two landings as they are two separate actions and there is nothing in-between is doing their student a grave disservice. I view all landings as one action with 3 point or wheelie as the extreme ends of the same action, learning to land as opposed to learning to 3 point or wheelie is probably a better way to teach the whole thought process. I also think that landing at either of those two extremes may be some folks choice, but usually not the most efficient way to get the airplane down.... a valid preference, maybe, maybe even a valid choice for a particular parameter, but not usually...

3 point..... by simply analyzing the name we can deduce this is poor form, after all, basic landing 101 dictates that the upwind wheel needs to contact the ground first if you are showing any wind correction at all. For the purpose of basic landing, all landings should be 1 point (and not the tailwheel) A properly slowed up airplane kissing the earth on all 3 wheels simultaneously, looks beautiful . But realistically, beyond the artful look of it all, a true 3 point landing serves no functional purpose.

Wheel landing... If you are truly landing wings flat, it is highly unlikely you have in fact stalled the wing. Probably not anything wrong with flying an airplane into the ground, if that floats your boat, but the 3 pointers are not wrong when they say it can be done slower. Most ag pilots that are flying high repetitions of loads do this, but they are not interested in getting slowed up to park, they want only to get to the loading pad as quick as safely possible, because landing does not pay the bills. And again, any wind correction at all and it is truly a 'wheel' landing, because there is only going to be one wheel touching at the instant of contact.

Wind correction... if you exaggerate this, your landings will look like you are drunk. If you leave it out, not only will you look drunk, but you will bounce. Because most of our landing gear suspension systems don't allow the wheels to track straight up and down. They all move the wheels closer or farther apart in their travel up and down. This opposing force will have to be cancelled out, and physics 101 dictates that your airplane is whats going to give, and you are going to bounce. Strive to always set one wheel down first, and you will be amazed at how much less you bounce...

Angle of attack... let the angle of attack change too much too quick, and your going to bounce... this is flying 101, keep the tail following the rest of the airplane...

Brakes... As students, we have it beat in our heads to stay off the brakes... phooey... That notion comes from the days of poor mechanical excuses for a brake. If you choose to retain mechanical brakes today, you can continue to stay off them as much as possible. In some airplanes this may be desirable. If you have put modern brakes on your airplane, I suggest that your brake pads will be much more economical to maintain than wing tips and new props. Use all the tools in the box...

Exaggerated control movements... Many instructors teach to shove the stick here, or pin the stick there... meh... the tailwheel isn't going to let the tail rotate any farther if you hold enough pressure to keep the wheel down. Shoving the stick through your seat isn't going to change that... the pilots I strive to emulate, handle flight controls like a fine women. Most hacks I know are shoving and yanking on controls, and it shows in their flying, as well as their maintenance bill... But again... we all have choices...

Landings may not be my strongest suit, but this is what I shoot for in 99% of what I fly, so far so good ;


Since I am somewhat vertically challenged (that means I'm short), this is what the immediately following sight picture looks like;


Notice the flaps are coming up and elevator is letting the tail fly, not forcing it to.. When it is done flying, I strive to let the tail down, again not forcing it to...
BTW, the only reason for the extended roll out is because the picnic area is 600' up the strip. Landing a properly slowed up cub as depicted should essentially be a 300' venture, with no brute force, or aerobatics needed... Properly added tidbits may cut that distance in half, but improperly added rigamarole will extend it... YMMV

FWIW, I don't instruct, I have a boatload of bad habits, and everything above is pure opinion
Sorry for the long winded response '55.... but you asked for it

Take care, Rob

55wagon wrote:...Other than that, just a stir the pot for fun discussion.

silvaire wrote:

hicountry wrote:...think speed, wind, control during a wheel landing. Always wheel landing in heavy crosswinds= more control...

Since the ultimate goal of any landing is to obtain an airspeed of zero you're going to have to lose that extra speed. Once you have put the mains on and have slowed to the same speed at which the three-pointer touches down, what is your advantage?

GumpAir wrote:

Rob wrote: I have a boatload of bad habits, and everything above is pure opinion

Damn Curmudgeons.... Quit scaring the grandkids.

Gump

55wagon wrote:I'm not a good writer or good at portraying my thoughts.

Hafast wrote:I don't know shit about landing an airplane, but your photographer is fabulous!

silvaire wrote:Since the ultimate goal of any landing is to obtain an airspeed of zero you're going to have to lose that extra speed. Once you have put the mains on and have slowed to the same speed at which the three-pointer touches down, what is your advantage?

silvaire wrote:

55wagon wrote:Right now I'm flying a 7EC Champ that has the L16 gear. In flight it hangs down all pigeon-toed about 8 inches and looks the way a Helio Courier or Pilatus Porter gear looks. It doesn't like wheel landings or even "greasers", it just likes to be dropped on in the 3-point attitude. Even in a crosswind, because of the length of oleo travel it still ends up a 3-pointer because the upwind leg compresses enough to allow the downwind leg to make contact. So different aircraft want different techniques.

mtv wrote:
I teach new tailwheel types to land the airplane every which way. The final task is one wheel touchdowns, followed by one wheel tail up taxi all the way down the runway, followed by a one wheel takeoff, never letting the "up" wheel touchdown. While it's on the runway, I want to see them drive it twenty feet left of the centerline, straighten it out, then drive it back to the centerline, then twenty feet right, etc. When they can do that, they can fly the airplane, and if nothing else, that exercise SHOULD demonstrate to them that they have sufficient control authority to make the airplane do whatever the pilot wants it to do. At least in reasonable conditions.

MTV

Battson wrote:My instructor always told me that you had to decide which you were doing, "there's no surer way to end up in trouble than trying to land somewhere in-between" [a 3 pointer and a wheeler] "you have to make a decision".
Any truth to that?

GumpAir wrote:No! Is right.

If you want to go work on wheelies, then that's what you go work on. To work on. I'll specifically do them just for the Zen of hopefully rolling the wheels on nice. Same with three pointers.

But day to day landings, I'm concentrating on stable approach, power for the flare, and gentle touch. Not what way it's gonna touch.

Gump