Zzz wrote:Personally, for crosswinds, I prefer just a little flap, and a 3-pointer. Have done it both ways, sometimes with great excitement.

Yeah I hear you. My throttle hand always gets twitchy in that situation. Never afraid to go around if things ball up.

I learned to fly from my dad. In a 170. When I was about to solo I had to take it from my "instructor" that wanted to do a landing. He almost wadded up our plane. He was under the make the decision ahead of time category. Which like some said is ok sometimes. Not that that's what caused it. But it can box you in. It can lead to tearing up a plane. And it can get u in trouble if your in a committed to land situation. IMHO. I don't think that I have ever 3 pointed in a real xwind. Not sure how you can really if it's serious. It'd be at least a 2pt being one main and tail. And def 1 wheeler if it's serious and to see if u even can make it. I would not wanna be plopping down full stall 3 pt when I realize it's more wind than I have rudder. On the coast in spring we have many a day of 40mph wind. I'm not good enough to 3 pt that yet if it's quartering The finding a good instructor is getting hard to find quote is true I believe. Like I said, I got my license from one; but my dad taught me how to "fly". I believe there's book pilots and pilots that feel it. I strive for the latter.

flightlogic wrote:You guys are all so full of crap. Just crash. Put the remaining pieces back in the tiedown spot and call it a landing. If there is something there to use the next time... go fly it.

Yup... Most days that's it exactly.

Gump

55wagon wrote:I learned to fly from my dad. In a 170. When I was about to solo I had to take it from my "instructor" that wanted to do a landing. He almost wadded up our plane. He was under the make the decision ahead of time category. Which like some said is ok sometimes. Not that that's what caused it. But it can box you in. It can lead to tearing up a plane. And it can get u in trouble if your in a committed to land situation. IMHO. I don't think that I have ever 3 pointed in a real xwind. Not sure how you can really if it's serious. It'd be at least a 2pt being one main and tail. And def 1 wheeler if it's serious and to see if u even can make it. I would not wanna be plopping down full stall 3 pt when I realize it's more wind than I have rudder. On the coast in spring we have many a day of 40mph wind. I'm not good enough to 3 pt that yet if it's quartering The finding a good instructor is getting hard to find quote is true I believe. Like I said, I got my license from one; but my dad taught me how to "fly". I believe there's book pilots and pilots that feel it. I strive for the latter.

Wow. Sounds like you're pretty good.

Na. Your right tho z. That came across pretty shitty now that I reread it. I don't really think I'm cut out for this writing shit. I'll just read from now on. Y'all take care.

55wagon wrote:Na. Your right tho z. That came across pretty shitty now that I reread it. I don't really think I'm cut out for this writing shit. I'll just read from now on. Y'all take care.

I'm just giving you shit. I agree with some of what you've written. Your original post was pretty biased, so I'm wondering if you're trying to learn something or teach us something? Like someone else said, why don't you just bring up religion or politics? The tricycle guys are all laughing at us anyway.

I have all of my 50 or so hours in a C-170 I have flown in some pretty good X winds 45 deg 25G30+ and have done both wheelies and 3 point. I mainly do 3 point in x-wind even though the wheelies give a little better control. I prefer 3 points as ounce down it usually is done flying... my 2 cents know to do it both ways.....

Rob wrote:

Battson wrote:My instructor always told me that you had to decide which you were doing, "there's no surer way to end up in trouble than trying to land somewhere in-between" [a 3 pointer and a wheeler] "you have to make a decision".
Any truth to that?

no

Well, I'd have to argue that it depends......

As a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR, I want to know precisely what to expect from a student (and I use the "student" title here as applies to anyone who's new to tailwheel ops). That means either I tell them, or they tell me whether each landing is going to be a three point or a wheel landing before we get there. So I know what to expect.

I think your flight instructor was getting at the point that, with the tail low, but the tailwheel not touching the surface, you are neither fish nor fowl. It's fine (and I do this regularly, and teach students to do so) to TOUCH DOWN in that attitude. But, once the main (s) are on the surface, that tail needs to get up to get the rudder into good clean air, or down into contact with the surface...otherwise you have very little steering. In a no flap airplane, this isn't TOO much of an issue, but there are vortices coming off the intersection of the fuselage and wing. Those vortices flow back and if the tail is low, can blanket the rudder. For flap equipped airplanes with the flaps deployed, these vortices can become really strong, and can really reduce rudder effectiveness. So, I LIKE to get the tail up in clean air, or down onto the surface right after initial touch.

If a student just sits there with the tail at half mast, I have a half a second or so to decide what he (or she) is trying to do, before it all starts going to shit. And, THEN, I have a big mess to try to salvage. Been there, done that.

Its fine for you high timers to advertise how you do things, but you may want to add "don't try this without adult supervision".

I for one think that a relatively LOW TIME taildragger type SHOULD have a plan for every landing. They may not yet have the skills or timing to react to what happens next without a plan. And, that plan needs to include exactly what they're going to do if it all goes to shit....like go around.

I tell students if they bounce a wheel landing, it's often easy to just turn it into a three point. Trying to salvage a bounced wheel landing can introduce you to engine teardowns and earn you a new propeller. MAYBE.

Bounce a little too high? Add a skoshi bit of power, and settle it on as a three point.

Once you have a little experience, THEN you can play it a little more free style.

Then again, as I noted earlier, there's the airplane type thing: My first Pitts flight, I asked the instructor whether he recommends three points or wheel landings. His response: "Shit, I dunno, I've always been way to busy to notice". A bit tongue in cheek, but I was soon to discover the truth to his advice. Gotta love those little short coupled buggers, they are a load of fun.

And, for you Maule guys, a dear old friend of mine advised me the opposite of Ray Maule's advice: "Never three point a Maule".....go figure.

MTV

55wagon wrote:
Na. Your right tho z. That came across pretty shitty now that I reread it. I don't really think I'm cut out for this writing shit. I'll just read from now on. Y'all take care.

Zzz wrote:
"I'm just giving you shit. I agree with some of what you've written. Your original post was pretty biased, so I'm wondering if you're trying to learn something or teach us something? Like someone else said, why don't you just bring up religion or politics? The tricycle guys are all laughing at us anyway."



DANG...how'd it get to that so quick. I'll say somethin, I know 55' and he is one humble laid back salt of the earth guy!!! He's just writin like he's talkin to his homies that know him and feel what he's sayin. That's the thing bout internet

Seriously Zzz, 55 is one bad ass dude that would treat you like family even if you are being rude for some strange reason

I am new here and don't want to pretend to know shit just love flyin, but I know 55 and he's about as passionate as one can get bout backcountry old school type real flyin!!! It just bugs me to hear someone try to talk him down when I know he would never try to prove nothin to no one and certainly is way too humble to try to be teachin someone somethin

Sorry did I sling mud Enough of that back to everyone's different take on how they get it done!!!

mtv wrote:....

An interesting and informative post - good stuff MTV. Thanks.

Apologies for my use of sarcasm-- It's the last retort of the witless.

I've never landed a 40 mph crosswind, probably never will. My best experiences in crosswinds in a Cub have been 3-pointers, which qualifies me as a beginner I suppose. 55wagon, do not be discouraged from the forum by me. It's my mission to make people feel welcome here, but I also engage these discussions with heart at times. Meeting in person always helps to smooth these "miscommunications."

No problem Z. I paid scalywag big bucks for that post. I seriously might not b cut out for this writing stuff tho. This is the most Internet I've ever used(besides surfin barn and trade daily) and the only blog ive ever joined. Got no interest in much other than flyin huntin and one other ....in. and I'm married so the last ones out. Lol. I really lack in getting my thoughts on paper or screen. Lotta times I look at the stuff I wrote and go " what the...." I can talk your ear off in person tho. Then maybe you'll c where I'm coming from. Didn't mean to insinuate I'm badass in anyway. But can c reading it how it may come across that way. Didn't mean nor never do intend to stir shit. Just havin fun like we where sitting around a fire somewhere. That's why I hate Internet and text sometime. Lost in translation. The way I look at it is if your on a sight called backcountry pilot; odds are your a cool dude. Lotta wannabes and people looking to prove shit tho I guess anywhere you go. I love to fly. Do it for a living and then do it when I get off work. I'm not a badass. I got no rules. I judge no one. Just want everyone to survive and have a blast.
So if you 3pt only you suck and your not as good as me. And if u don't land at 43.54 mph your not good as me either. Great site dude! Thanks for putting it together. Although I'pissed to cause then I wouldn't be so jealous of all the cool stuff you western guys have to do! Hoping to meet some of y'all someday. (Y'all is a term that means you all). Meaning you to Zzzzzzzzzzz. Notice I asked for experiences thought as well. Not to debate em but learn from they're wisdom. I'm a sponge. Have fun bro. And if I post more shit; take me and my dumbass hillbilly writing w a grain of salt. You have to wheel land

mtv wrote:

Rob wrote:

Battson wrote:My instructor always told me that you had to decide which you were doing, "there's no surer way to end up in trouble than trying to land somewhere in-between" [a 3 pointer and a wheeler] "you have to make a decision".
Any truth to that?

no

Well, I'd have to argue that it depends......

As a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR, I want to know precisely what to expect from a student (and I use the "student" title here as applies to anyone who's new to tailwheel ops). That means either I tell them, or they tell me whether each landing is going to be a three point or a wheel landing before we get there. So I know what to expect.

I think your flight instructor was getting at the point that, with the tail low, but the tailwheel not touching the surface, you are neither fish nor fowl. It's fine (and I do this regularly, and teach students to do so) to TOUCH DOWN in that attitude. But, once the main (s) are on the surface, that tail needs to get up to get the rudder into good clean air, or down into contact with the surface...otherwise you have very little steering. In a no flap airplane, this isn't TOO much of an issue, but there are vortices coming off the intersection of the fuselage and wing. Those vortices flow back and if the tail is low, can blanket the rudder. For flap equipped airplanes with the flaps deployed, these vortices can become really strong, and can really reduce rudder effectiveness. So, I LIKE to get the tail up in clean air, or down onto the surface right after initial touch.

If a student just sits there with the tail at half mast, I have a half a second or so to decide what he (or she) is trying to do, before it all starts going to shit. And, THEN, I have a big mess to try to salvage. Been there, done that.

Its fine for you high timers to advertise how you do things, but you may want to add "don't try this without adult supervision".

I for one think that a relatively LOW TIME taildragger type SHOULD have a plan for every landing. They may not yet have the skills or timing to react to what happens next without a plan. And, that plan needs to include exactly what they're going to do if it all goes to shit....like go around.

I tell students if they bounce a wheel landing, it's often easy to just turn it into a three point. Trying to salvage a bounced wheel landing can introduce you to engine teardowns and earn you a new propeller. MAYBE.

Bounce a little too high? Add a skoshi bit of power, and settle it on as a three point.

Once you have a little experience, THEN you can play it a little more free style.

Then again, as I noted earlier, there's the airplane type thing: My first Pitts flight, I asked the instructor whether he recommends three points or wheel landings. His response: "Shit, I dunno, I've always been way to busy to notice". A bit tongue in cheek, but I was soon to discover the truth to his advice. Gotta love those little short coupled buggers, they are a load of fun.

And, for you Maule guys, a dear old friend of mine advised me the opposite of Ray Maule's advice: "Never three point a Maule".....go figure.

MTV

Not your wimpy Cessna spring gear!!
It's only about 5/8" thick where the axle bolts on!!
Heck it should be easy, just a little over 10' between the tires??
Have been trying it out some since I got home!! 29" tires and these chunks of spring steel can make for a 1, 2, 3 point and a wheel landing most every time so far!!
But going to work at it until one of us wins!!
Sure is different than that ol 210 I've been flyin for the last year!!
MTV, I think we could get the Pitt's inside if we took the wings off!!(would that count as 2 landings with it on board?)

GT

55wagon wrote:...I don't think that I have ever 3 pointed in a real xwind. Not sure how you can really if it's serious. It'd be at least a 2pt being one main and tail...

True but I think for the purpose of distinction this is going to be considered a "3-pointer" based on the pitch attitude at touchdown if the main and tail wheel make contact at the same time.

I think we've got some good discussion going on here now and I don't see any of us as being religious fanatics for either camp but I still have this one thing that bugs me and that is the idea that you somehow have better control over crosswinds with a wheel landing. The "speed and wind over control surfaces" argument doesn't work for me because you are decelerating and, sooner or later, you have to give that advantage up. Let's just ask, for a given speed of say 40 mph in a crosswind how does having the tail in the air provide any better control over having the tailwheel on the ground?

I just land as slow as possible, every time. I like to be done flying when I first touchdown. It may be a very tail low or three point, but almost never a wheel landing. If it's cross wind enough to present a problem I cheat and angle into it as much as possible, even if it means cross ways on a runway, ramp or taxi way, I'm not proud.... still pretty much three point it though. My tail wheel touchs down down first fairly often, (even on skis, where I can see my tracks) bad form I guess but I seem to have good low speed elevator authority and it doesn't slam down on the mains so what the heck, it's SLOW. I like the physics of going slow as possible, so much less energy involved, I snowboard a lot faster then I land the plane, according to my eyeball anyway. I sure as hell have been hurt worse snow boarding then ever flying Scared worse too.

First in my mind is who is going to pay for fixing the airplane, and who is going to do the work. That'd be me both times (not like bending a store bought plane with full hull insurance, and letting Avemco or whomever and your A & P deal with the whole mess, just saying) it gets real personal and the best way I have found to minimize damage is land slow, and that means three point about 99% of the time. I don't have super trick brakes and really don't depend on them much, so for me it always comes back to slow as possible/three point.

silvaire wrote:...but I still have this one thing that bugs me and that is the idea that you somehow have better control over crosswinds with a wheel landing. The "speed and wind over control surfaces" argument doesn't work for me because you are decelerating and, sooner or later, you have to give that advantage up. Let's just ask, for a given speed of say 40 mph in a crosswind how does having the tail in the air provide any better control over having the tailwheel on the ground?

Since I have read all these posts I am now going to respond with more experience than I had when I made my first reply.
Silvaire, it isn't just that there is more working control surface with the tail up in the wind instead of tipped back or in wing or flap turbulence, there is also more control with at least one main planted and rolling in the same direction as the plane is moving. Control is gained in stages with the mains before that point of it all dropping out at stall. It provides some of that same incremental gain of stability enjoyed by those special pilots that can touch a main wheel and fly out the tail till the nosewheel drops. Just rolling onto a main lets the world line itself up straight with the plane in stages and then the tail follows. When it got comfortable for me I came to think of the wheel landing as one way to reduce pilot work load at touchdown.

mtv wrote:

Rob wrote:

Battson wrote:My instructor always told me that you had to decide which you were doing, "there's no surer way to end up in trouble than trying to land somewhere in-between" [a 3 pointer and a wheeler] "you have to make a decision".
Any truth to that?

no

Well, I'd have to argue that it depends......

As a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR, I want to know precisely what to expect from a student (and I use the "student" title here as applies to anyone who's new to tailwheel ops). That means either I tell them, or they tell me whether each landing is going to be a three point or a wheel landing before we get there. So I know what to expect.

I think your flight instructor was getting at the point that, with the tail low, but the tailwheel not touching the surface, you are neither fish nor fowl. It's fine (and I do this regularly, and teach students to do so) to TOUCH DOWN in that attitude. But, once the main (s) are on the surface, that tail needs to get up to get the rudder into good clean air, or down into contact with the surface...otherwise you have very little steering. In a no flap airplane, this isn't TOO much of an issue, but there are vortices coming off the intersection of the fuselage and wing. Those vortices flow back and if the tail is low, can blanket the rudder. For flap equipped airplanes with the flaps deployed, these vortices can become really strong, and can really reduce rudder effectiveness. So, I LIKE to get the tail up in clean air, or down onto the surface right after initial touch.

If a student just sits there with the tail at half mast, I have a half a second or so to decide what he (or she) is trying to do, before it all starts going to shit. And, THEN, I have a big mess to try to salvage. Been there, done that.

Its fine for you high timers to advertise how you do things, but you may want to add "don't try this without adult supervision".

I for one think that a relatively LOW TIME taildragger type SHOULD have a plan for every landing. They may not yet have the skills or timing to react to what happens next without a plan. And, that plan needs to include exactly what they're going to do if it all goes to shit....like go around.

I tell students if they bounce a wheel landing, it's often easy to just turn it into a three point. Trying to salvage a bounced wheel landing can introduce you to engine teardowns and earn you a new propeller. MAYBE.

Bounce a little too high? Add a skoshi bit of power, and settle it on as a three point.

Once you have a little experience, THEN you can play it a little more free style.

Then again, as I noted earlier, there's the airplane type thing: My first Pitts flight, I asked the instructor whether he recommends three points or wheel landings. His response: "Shit, I dunno, I've always been way to busy to notice". A bit tongue in cheek, but I was soon to discover the truth to his advice. Gotta love those little short coupled buggers, they are a load of fun.

And, for you Maule guys, a dear old friend of mine advised me the opposite of Ray Maule's advice: "Never three point a Maule".....go figure.

MTV

+1

silvaire wrote:

55wagon wrote:...I don't think that I have ever 3 pointed in a real xwind. Not sure how you can really if it's serious. It'd be at least a 2pt being one main and tail...

True but I think for the purpose of distinction this is going to be considered a "3-pointer" based on the pitch attitude at touchdown if the main and tail wheel make contact at the same time.

Silvaire makes a good point....we've all been using inappropriate terminology here, though it's common. In fact, the "three point" landing should be referred to as a "full stall" landing. With that description, if there's a crosswind, then a "two point" landing may still be "full stall".

And, not to beat the different airplane thing into the dirt or anything....bear in mind that not every tailwheel airplane sits on the ground at very close to it's stalling pitch attitude. Hence the many Super Cub mods for longer gear, bigger tires, etc. In most taildraggers, it is quite possible to touchdown tailwheel first, particularly with a bit of power. So, even though we tend to THINK of the "three point" as a stalling configuration, it most often is not, at least in the power off situation. The manufacturers almost always built in a LITTLE bit of additional lift once the airplane's on the surface tail down.

MTV

I'm enjoying this thread and hearing the experiences and techniques of others, all while learning along the way - cool.

My taildragger experience revolves around three planes, the Super D, Stearmans, and 185. First few hours of my dragger training was in the Super D (from the back seat to get me ready for the Stearman) and I was too busy (terrified) to remember much. Here is what works for me:

I always strive to land as slow as conditions allow, which generally means three point. Of course there are exceptions.

Gusty headwind: this is when I will wheel land because I'm carrying extra speed (to ensure she will still fly when wind speed drops) and if I tried to three point she'd just leap into the air. When wheel landing I keep the tail up (by constantly pushing the stick/yoke forward as needed) until the tail drops and then I pin her to the ground by pulling the stick/yoke all the way back and holding it there. This ensures the least amount of time in neverland, that place between rudder up and tail wheel steering.

Crosswinds (gusty or otherwise): I always always always three point attitude these landings. The reason is I want the plane in the attitude it will end up on the ground so I know how the wind wants to move it around. And I want to be as slow as possible. And I know I may need some aggressive braking and I want enough time to react if my braking levers the tail up unintentionally. Of course the landing is initially a two point with one main and the tail wheel touching first. The third wheel (main) comes down when either I no longer need to feed in aileron or the wing quits flying, and as that happens I'm ready to stab at the brakes as often and hard as needed, especially in the 185 as it wants to weathervane at slow speeds with direct crosswinds much worse then the Stearman (I suspect because of the large tail surface). And I use as much runway, taxiway, tie down area (if big enough and nothing else is there - including ATC) as needed to cheat the wind if its really blowing.

Shortfield (no rocks): I'll three point these, ease up just a little on the yoke/stick, aggressively get on the brakes to lever the tail up (getting weight on the mains, where the brakes are). The reason I've eased up the back pressure on the yoke/stick is so if I've been a little too aggressive with the brakes initially I have authority to lower the tail with the elevator as well as easing off the brakes.

The above is what works for me with my planes and my level of experience, YMMV. One final thing I'd humbly and respectively encourage...if someone only wheel lands or only three points because the other scares them, then by all means seek out a great instructor and get rid of that fear, or get a tricycle gear airplane, otherwise a landing accident is likely somewhere in your future, IMHO.

Okay all this makes me want to go flying!

When I started instruction for a tail wheel endorsement all I could do was wheel landings. I think it was do to having only nose wheel experience??? Anyone else that learned tail wheel after lots of nose wheel only have that happen?

That instructor would ask what each landing was going to be and I always said and did wheel landings.

He then quit asking and told me every landing was going to be full stall. I have made full stall landings only for the past six years and had lost the skill to make wheel landings. I tried one now and then the past few months but they were not great landings.

I recently had a flight review so told my instructor before we started that I colund't make good wheel landings any more. He got me straightened out and comfortable with wheel landings again. The problem now is I have...or get...to decide which I am going to do.

55waggon said:

(Y'all is a term that means you all). Meaning you to Zzzzzzzzzzz.

I have a southern friend that says "Y'll" is singular, the plural form is "All Y'll"