Just thought I'd see when you guys last used a ADF, DME, etc. I'm going through my instrument training and 70% of the information seems to be related to this.

I listened to some local ball game on KOBI AM with my ADF just minutes before pulling it from the panel in my 170 about 9 years ago.

Despite what may be considered antiquated navaid technology by modern GPS standards, the understanding and situational awareness required to utilize some of those older systems is the real mental workout that shows you are worthy of instrument flight.

DME is often combined with VOR for precision approaches, if I remember correctly. There are DME arc approaches still in use on the Oregon coast. The ADF/NDB stuff not so much but it could be any brain teaser to get you thinking about headings and relative bearings and general situational awareness.

*Disclaimer, I did not finish my instrument rating, but I really had some amazing successes in X-Plane several years ago.

DME is pretty useful and required for some approaches. I use it frequently if it's installed in the aircraft I'm flying. ADF might give you some in flight music, a forward CG, and will intermittently point at an NDB.

Problem is, some aircraft still have them, so you can't get your instrument ticket without being proficient.

And GPS is shampoo simple, so it shouldn't be a surprise you're spending more time on the others.

What's an ETC?

We were still using them extensively when I left the Army in 1983. Bureaucracy can make a device critical until they too pull it from the panel. If you can find the old Army FM, or Field Manual, concerning ADF approach, that would help you. They are fine, simple, low frequency AM radio direction finders.

The point of the needle always points to the station. We Army pilots liked it better than VOR because of that constant, reliable situational awareness. To get the needle to stay on the relative bearing necessary to crab enough to track a straight rather than a curved directed course to the station, we make heading changes to pull the tail of the needle or push the head.

If we are fighting a left crosswind and ten degrees left crab resulting in a ten degree right relative bearing isn't doing it, we will drift right. This will cause the relative bearing to become less. Say it is now showing nine degrees right relative bearing. We need to turn a few degrees more left crab to pull the tail left making the head go right and back to ten degrees. Or you can think of the further left heading change as further pushing the head of the needle right.

Sounds really complicated and it get a little weird without RMI, but if you get out and do it in an aircraft or simulator you will get the hang of it quickly. Very few choices or buttons to push. Like none once you have tuned and identified the station. Think like an artist rather than a mathematician. Relative, or about this much, is good and then see how it goes. Be a little proactive and dynamic.

DME is still very relevant. I use it every day at work. ADF not so much. However, shooting NDB approaches under the hood in a crosswind will make a man out of you. If you can master them as an instrument student you shouldn't have a problem with anything else.

No insturment rated, but last time I really used DME and ADF for navigation was about 5 years ago in primary training. My instructor did not want a portable GPS to be used until after I passed my check ride and I am glad for it. Last time I "used" ADF was about 2 years ago to pick up some AM stations to listen to on a long cross country. Pulled the VOR and ADF out of my plane.

I did have a brief GPS outage last month when flying through Nevada. Our government was doing GPS jammer testing and I know I lost GPS for about a minute as did a number of airliners I heard pipe up to SLC Center. Was fully ready to switch over to pilotage-only but GPS came back soon after. IFR would obviously require more redundancy.

Bender wrote:DME is still very relevant. I use it every day at work. ADF not so much. However, shooting NDB approaches under the hood in a crosswind will make a man out of you. If you can master them as an instrument student you shouldn't have a problem with anything else.

True! I always hated NDB holding in high winds, too haha

1) how many pilots here are instrument rated?
2) how many pilots here fly IFR with any regularity? I'm talking your personal airplanes here, not the kerosene burners you fly at work.
3) how many VFR pilots here have airplanes that are equipped for at least rudimentary IFR ops? Horizon, DG, nav radio with GS and/or en route / approach approved GPS?

DME arcs are used all the time in AK.

I last "used" my ADF to shoot an NDB approach into Holdrege, NE, about 6 years ago. That approach has been replaced now with a GPS approach, but at the time, it was the only way to get in there--cloud deck's top was right below the procedure turn altitude, and its bottom was about 20' above the minimums--we popped out of the clouds, and there was the airport--a textbook result.

Flying an NDB approach isn't all that difficult, but it really does require good situational awareness, especially if it's windy at all. What usually got to most instrument students was that they tried to fly it like a VOR non-precision approach, and that doesn't work.

I haven't actually used DME in ages, but we had it in all of the airplanes I partnered in. Many approaches include a DME arc, true, but its real benefit, pre-GPS, was knowing how far to go to the next waypoint, the actual ground speed, etc., as necessary to answer the inevitable questions, "Are we there yet?" and "How long until we get there--I really have to go potty!" Now any handheld GPS answers those questions.

I've been instrument rated for about 41 years. I was a CFII, letting that lapse in 1987. But I fly IFR frequently--in fact, on the way to La Garita 2+ weeks ago, it was the easiest way to get out of Greeley, and in a 2 1/2 hour flight to Alamosa, I logged about .6 in IMC. I came home VFR. Most of my longer cross countries are IFR, especially if there are clouds along the way, as it's a whole lot easier not to have to dodge them. It's also a lot easier if there are Class C and B areas and MOAs in the way, as there is very little diversion around them. Unlike VFR flight following, flying into Class B airspace IFR needs no specific clearance, as it's automatic.

My airplane's equipment is good for modern "light IFR", which is about as good as any light airplane should have--the airplane itself isn't good for anything more rigorous, and at this point, neither am I!

Cary

The plane I have access to has DME/ADF/ILS/LORAN.

Of course I won't use the last one, but I don't feel like renting for instrument training. I guess I'll be learning it.

I got my CFII in 1976 and was never able to afford an IFR airplane. I logged more IMC, around 400 hours, than hood or simulator time. Almost all of it was in Army helicopters. Half of it was Aircraft Commander and half PIC which meant co-pilot. We always shared the stick time as it was much safer that way. The Huey had no auto pilot and fatigue brings on vertigo and vertigo causes sickness unless you trade off. Because of inherent instability, helicopter IMC or hood flight requires a faster and more intense scan than IMC or hood flight in inherently stable airplanes.

Lots of good stories, thanks everyone for sharing. I was just wondering what the consensus is on those instruments. Some of them may seem rudimentary, but they seem to be pretty reliable ( some more than others) . I guess I'll keep learning them to pass the ol FAA test. I do appreciate the know how of older instruments.

The last time I used an NDB for navigation was on my IFR check ride back in the late 80's. I used it once in a while for music after that, but once I got a music in jack on my audio panel I never looked back. Now I don't even have an NDB or a stand alone DME in the plane.

I miss my ADF antennae as a clothesline for drying the dew off my tent before I fold it up. DME I use all the time with my datron dvor. I always know what radial I'm on, with slant distance, and can switch to/from and between radios to triangulate. The gps will do it too, with some persuasion but it's nice to have certain info on the screen and other info elsewhere in your scan. The best thing about VOR/DME is that you can keep the plane current for instrument flying easily. Rather than a $1000/year gps subscription, you can check your VOR radios once a month for free. I've even filed IFR, and brought my vor's up to date following them to the fix where I picked up my clearance. Getting flight following is easy peasy too if you give a distance and radial from a vor. If they don't have to hunt you down, they'll usually accommodate your request.

You'll have to fly 3 different approaches for the check ride, dme/vor lets you use an ILS and the backcourse for 2 of them. and a nonprecision vor approach for the 3rd, add a homemade dme arc into one of them and you're done.

Use the ETC as a slant code to get any clearance you want.

hotrod180 wrote:...........3) how many VFR pilots here have airplanes that are equipped for at least rudimentary IFR ops? Horizon, DG, nav radio with GS and/or en route / approach approved GPS?

The reason I asked this question is that most airplanes (including the four I've owned) are equipped with horizon DG etc. I removed the vacuum system DG & horizon from my last two airplanes (C170 & C150/150TD), and (in spite of comments like "you'll kill yourself!") after over 12 years & 1500 hours between the two of them I'm still alive. These comments BTW came from VFR-only pilots, or way-out-of-currency IFR pilots- who probably couldn't stay upright on the gauges is their life depended on it. Ditto for most of us who don't fly IFR and/or practice under the hood regularly.

My C180 like most I've seen has a full gyro panel, but (also like many others) only has a com radio txp & hand-held GPS. In fact, I've only seen like two 180's without gyros, one had them removed and the other (a 54 model) came gyro-free from the factory. My turn coordinator started to whine, so I rewired it to a circuit breaker, covered it over (except for the ball), and turned it off. I plan on turning it on briefly before every flight so it doesn't freeze up, so in the future I can always turn it on if I think I'll need it. Never used the rate-of-turn feature, also never use the DG or horizon-- so if and when they or the vacuum pump go gunnysack they might get the same disconnect and cover up treatment-- or I just might remove them all.

I'm IFR rated and fly single pilot on demand IFR for work.

NDBs are easy, especially since most everyone that flys one monitors the NDB but will just fly (or let George fly) the GPS overlay, though now days if a strip has a approach most times it has a GPS approach.

On my 185 I have a decent panel, 530, 430, EHSI, Stec AP with alt hold and GPSS, vac AI, I don't have a ADF, only approaches I've flown in her have been GPS or ILS.

When you say removed the vac system are you talking about replacing it with electronic gyros?

Choosing to fly no gyros (especially no AI) in IMC is not a bright idea.

NineThreeKilo wrote:..... When you say removed the vac system are you talking about replacing it with electronic gyros? Choosing to fly no gyros (especially no AI) in IMC is not a bright idea.

I'm talking about just removing the vacuum gyros, period. And I agree about trying to fly in IMC with no gyros being a bad idea. Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough: I am a VFR pilot with no plans to fly in IMC-- and in 20 years and almost 3000 hours, I haven't.

Some people seem to think there's a need to have a full gyro panel for VFR-only flying, but I don't.

hotrod180 wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:..... When you say removed the vac system are you talking about replacing it with electronic gyros? Choosing to fly no gyros (especially no AI) in IMC is not a bright idea.

I'm talking about just removing the vacuum gyros, period. And I agree about trying to fly in IMC with no gyros being a bad idea. Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough: I am a VFR pilot with no plans to fly in IMC-- and in 20 years and almost 3000 hours, I haven't.

Some people seem to think there's a need to have a full gyro panel for VFR-only flying, but I don't.

I would agree that a pretty basic airplane needs no full gyro panel, but you have a pretty good traveling machine with the 180, not just a back country play thing. I've found it very difficult to travel long distances without going IFR, and my airplane is a lot less of a good traveling machine than yours. Things like marginal visibility, flying on top of a cloud layer, etc. have always been easier and less stressful while IFR, even if it's not necessary to actually fly in the soup for most of the trip. So frankly I'd encourage you to keep the gyros, make sure that the airplane is indeed IFR current, and get your IR. It's a lot of work, but it's worth it, and it opens up opportunities to go, when your VFR-only buddies must remain on the ground.

Cary