I agree with Cary because of your speed. To go very far with the airplane, you will encounter some weather. The choices are land, get down really low where you can see well, or file IFR. Good flaps make the first not much of a problem. You are going too fast to make the second comfortable. The last is the most comfortable.

Having flown millions of miles at 200' on pipelines, I can tell you that scud running is very tiring and not really enjoyable. And in that work, speed kills.

hotrod180 wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:..... When you say removed the vac system are you talking about replacing it with electronic gyros? Choosing to fly no gyros (especially no AI) in IMC is not a bright idea.

I'm talking about just removing the vacuum gyros, period. And I agree about trying to fly in IMC with no gyros being a bad idea. Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough: I am a VFR pilot with no plans to fly in IMC-- and in 20 years and almost 3000 hours, I haven't.

Some people seem to think there's a need to have a full gyro panel for VFR-only flying, but I don't.

Ok, I gotcha.

Yeah, I'd have no worries about ditching the vac system and just running a bare bones VFR panel, just make sure you give yourself a wide margin when it comes to weather and cross countries.

Also 3,000hrs over 20 years isn't much flying per year, not trying to insult you or anything, if you try to fly very frequently year round you'll get into some extra marginal VFR where having some gyros will make a large diffrence. With a no gyros panel I'd consider MVFR as IFR, like I said, I'd have zero issues flying no gyros, but it is a handicap on the aircraft.

You could also just get a little non permeant mounted (so it can be "mounted" in certified aircraft) "pocket panel" like this, just use it for long cross countries, if the weather might get iffy, or other situations like that.

Plus you'd had a sweet moving map GPS, data logger, G meter, etc










http://www.grtavionics.com/mini-ga.html

NineThreeKilo wrote:.....Also 3,000hrs over 20 years isn't much flying per year, not trying to insult you or anything, if you try to fly very frequently year round you'll get into some extra marginal VFR where having some gyros will make a large diffrence.....

3000 hrs in 20 years is an average of 150 hours a year-- maybe not much compared to guys doing it for a living, but I probably log just as many (or more hours) flying for fun as most of the pilots I know. This is the first time I've ever been accused of not flying very much I do fly all year around, and I'm based in the Puget Sound area, which isn't noted for severe clear conditions in the off season. I don't have an instrument rating, and don't really wanna get one because I don't really wanna spend my flying time in the clouds. I also don't really spend the money and load my panel up with all the avionics I'd need to do it right. Let's see- an en route & approach approved GPS, plus a nav radio with glideslope & marker beacons are about the minimum I would feel comfortable with.

hotrod180 wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:.....Also 3,000hrs over 20 years isn't much flying per year, not trying to insult you or anything, if you try to fly very frequently year round you'll get into some extra marginal VFR where having some gyros will make a large diffrence.....

3000 hrs in 20 years is an average of 150 hours a year-- maybe not much compared to guys doing it for a living, but I probably log just as many (or more hours) flying for fun as most of the pilots I know. This is the first time I've ever been accused of not flying very much I do fly all year around, and I'm based in the Puget Sound area, which isn't noted for severe clear conditions in the off season. I don't have an instrument rating, and don't really wanna get one because I don't really wanna spend my flying time in the clouds. I also don't really spend the money and load my panel up with all the avionics I'd need to do it right. Let's see- an en route & approach approved GPS, plus a nav radio with glideslope & marker beacons are about the minimum I would feel comfortable with.

Hey, I completely missed you're out of Jefco, nice airport and good pie at the airport diner! My folks live up there, sweet place, too bad Syrians closed, I really liked their beer. I did all my training for my CPL out of Harvey in their 7AC as well as building my time in my S108 (now replaced by a A185F).

As hours go, I really didn't intend to offend you, I was just putting myself in your shoes, I've been flying for 7 years I'm a ATP/CFI with about 4,000hrs, for work I fly 135 single pilot IFR. From the flying I did up in the northwest I could see myself, even as a very proficient IFR guy, taking off in a no gyros skywagon getting my "mental gyros" a little out of wack at night or via IIMC and having a pucker factor moment, or worse, with some type of attitude indicator it would be a non event. Option two during day ops would be to put her down on a road or beach or grass area, once the cig dropped to your personal minimum, which could turn out poorly if you weren't already familiar with the landing area, night flying...forgedaboutit!

Especially if you're flying up there, you're going to be pushing it doing much outside of pattern flying outside of the summer.

Look into that pocket panel I linked to, it doesn't have a single moving part, it's all self contained, doesn't weight anything, and as skywagons go it's a cheap upgrade.

If you get into some crap, or even do a CAVU night takeoff over a unlit area, loose your body's internal gyro for a second and you're easily done or you survive and your airplane is toast, that pocket panel is full synthetic vision, so just fly the little airplane on the screen out of it, honestly if you have a mental hiccup a quick glance at that thing with snap you back. You'd even be better off skipping one years worth of insurance and buying that thing from a safety and responsibility standpoint IMO

TxKiger wrote:Just thought I'd see when you guys last used a ADF, DME, etc. I'm going through my instrument training and 70% of the information seems to be related to this.

1) What is your mission?
2) How is your plane equipped today?
3) What is your budget?
4) What is your intended use of this newly acquired rating?

You have a Skywagon with the most basic legal IFR panel and want to get above the 2000' ceiling, or higher to get the winds, or just want a friend to talk to for the ride (ATC) then basic MIGHT be fine, IF you know how to use it well and are good at resource management. Single pilot IMC can be more work that you might expect.

If you have a well equipped technologically advanced panel and you don't know how to use all the bells and whistles you could be in BIG trouble. That same plane could also be a real handful for the pilot who ONLY knows how to operate the systems, then is caught off guard when the AHRS goes T/U at the same time the fancy AP decides it's time for a coffee break.

Make sure your training is appropriate for how YOU will apply these skills in reality.

edit:
oops, now to ACTUALLY answer the question. I haven't used either since my Instrument checkride in 2006. Every instrument plane since then has had IFR cert. GPS so DME and ADF (and in some cases LORAN) came out.

NineThreeKilo wrote:...From the flying I did up in the northwest I could see myself, even as a very proficient IFR guy, taking off in a no gyros skywagon getting my "mental gyros" a little out of wack at night or via IIMC and having a pucker factor moment .................
Especially if you're flying up there, you're going to be pushing it doing much outside of pattern flying outside of the summer. ....

I guess I've been pushing it, cuz I definitely do more than pattern flying ouside of summer.
As far as getting out of whack and puckered...I don't like flying at night, and I don't take off into IMC. Have yet to fly into IMC en route either. I play it pretty safe, so maybe I'm missing out sometimes, but then again I haven't ever augered one in either.

How many people here have instrument ratings, but don't fly IFR (other than maybe a quick pop-up thru a low layer) due to not being current / proficient. I know lots of people with instrument tickets, but most of them don't fly IFR and either haven't for many years, or else haven't ever flown IFR after getting the rating.

I stay relatively current by having an IPC every so often. In this part of the world, it's a lot different from your area, so there aren't lots of opportunities to fly in actual IMC, and it's surprising how hard it is to find a safety pilot who has the time to spend. So about every 8 months or so, I'll go up with my CFII for an IPC wring-out.

It's true that I don't fly in actual IMC all that often, but when I'm going somewhere, I'm very glad that a little IMC isn't going to stop me.

Let me add something that has nothing to do with flying in IMC. Getting an instrument rating, even if a pilot never flies in IMC, is valuable. Part of that value is learning a lot more about weather, and another part is tightening up precision flying. You probably don't have a need for the second item, but all of us can't learn enough about weather.

Cary

If you go to strange big towns a lot, IFR service is the easiest way to get to where you want to go. Take the bus and leave the driving to us. I never entered Class B in the middle of Class B until I entered Class D. But I had a pipeline right of way to follow.