Tito wrote:

GumpAir wrote:

Tito wrote: 75 hours of actual IFR is pretty hard to get if you dont fly for a living.

Figure on hand-flying that much IFR a month if you do fly for a living up there....

Gump

Or more if you fly in new england or the midwest.

I wonder just how much actual IFR the fish police fly in AK a year? In the Husky or C185 that is.

Probably not near that much. Part 135 figure close to 1,400 hours total time a year (with a good chunk of actual IFR, logged and un-logged), with the govt jobs I'm betting a lot less.

Gump

Tito wrote:

GumpAir wrote:

Tito wrote: 75 hours of actual IFR is pretty hard to get if you dont fly for a living.

Figure on hand-flying that much IFR a month if you do fly for a living up there....

Gump

Or more if you fly in new england or the midwest.

I wonder just how much actual IFR the fish police fly in AK a year? In the Husky or C185 that is.

None. NPS and USFWS are prohibited from flying in less than VFR conditions in single engine airplanes

Tito,

DOI Prohibits single engine IFR in mountainous terrain as policy. There are a very few waivers, but.

You're right, the basic qualifications are essentially the ATP requirements, just because.

Once and Futr is also correct, to a point. OPM has recently ruled that agencies can no longer hire people into pilot positions with less than 500 PIC, even as dual function. So, now, even with collateral duties, you need that to qualify for dual function jobs.

I almost guarantee you that most folks who are straight pilots would go bonkers living and working in Bettles with nothing to do but fly for NPS. They don't do that much flying. Bring a book. Actually, bring lotsa books.

MTV

Our local NPS had a really nice 185...the "pilot" ground looped it twice in as many years, so they finally got him a trainer 206. He retired, budgets got cut, and the airplane went away all together. Now they use the 135 operators, as it should be...government has no business competing with private enterprise, IMHO.

I had no idea the requirements are as stringent as you guys who flew/fly for the government say they are. Everyone always figured this guy was still using a solo endorsement. They did say the fellow is an excellent firearms instructor, though.

gb

Nick,
Good luck to you. I was just a couple years younger than you are when I started venturing down a similar path. By the time I finished flight school I'd pretty much changed my mind. It's not that I didn't love flying...it's just that the path to what I considered a good flying job required too many years spent living out of motels, hustling canceled checks from Lodi to LA, etc.. The joy of flying didn't compensate for what I considered to be a shit lifestyle. If I could have figured out a way to fly small planes in the bush I'd have gone for it. Of course those pesky bush operators wanted good pilots...not just pilots that wanted to fly in the bush. What you have to go through before actually getting paid to fly has always seemed incredibly expensive and arduous for what you get in return.

I can't encourage you enough to start flying, but don't get too selective about what you might want to do with it. If you haven't worked for the US Government before, you'll be in for a hell of a shock. It's not for everyone. Consider that it will probably take you a minimum of five to ten years to amass the experience levels they list as minimums, and you can see why it's best to keep your options open.

Right now, I'd just get a copy of Stick and Rudder and enjoy learning how to fly. If you get a private license and never fly another day in your life, it will still be worth it. If you get a dream job flying the bush, more power to you. Or maybe, like most flying people, you'll make your money elsewhere, then spend it all on your personal airplane. It's all good.

PM me and I'll fill you in on the USFS. Long story short, I flew for them once and spent about six years trying to get a foot back in the door. Finally offered a job flying jumpers again the same day I was heading to training for my current job. Anyway, I'm well versed in the requirements and the current work environment.

As far as the jumper side goes, there is HEAVY use of radios: air to air, air to ground, and communicating with dispatch. Good gig that used to be better, but limited slots and, depending on the current hiring trend of places like the airlines, can be difficult to land a job. Of course, this is all in addition to the required competitive experience, not just what is advertised on paper.

gbflyer,

You've got it backwards....Government employed pilots aren't the government competing with private industry. But, government hiring 135 pilots to fly resource missions is, in fact, private industry competing with inherently governmental function....

The big problem is that I've never met a 135 guy who wasn't absolutely convinced that he could easily fly any resource mission today. In fact, there's a bit more to that kind of flying, and in fact, today's 135 flying does NOT qualify one well at all for resource flying operations.

Oh, yeah, and then there's the issue of doing law enforcement work, where agency policies (and good common sense) dictate that you can't use contract pilots. Someone gets shot, guess who gets sued. Besides, in my experience, the 135 guys didn't want to show up delivering the game warden.

Finally, take a look at one of the natural resource agencies in Alaska, and their accident record: Since 1970 there have been zero FATAL aircraft accidents involving dual function pilots for FWS in Alaska. On the other hand, there have been at least SIX fatal accidents, with 12 fatalities in contract aircraft or DOI aircraft being flown by "full time" pilots. And the dual function pilots have flown tens of thousands of accident free hours during that period.

So, which is worse--a ground loop or a fatal?

MTV

mtv wrote: today's 135 flying does NOT qualify one well at all for resource flying operations.

Very true...

Today's 135 driver starts in a C207 or Cherokee Six and whines and cries until they get moved up to a Navajo and/or Caravan. Still some Cub and 185 guys left, but those numbers are shrinking fast.

The weather is the same, but all the airplane experience is on tricycle gear wheels, with absolutely no off-airport time at all. In fact the old "strips" I grew up with are considered too short, muddy, rough, etc, and are being replaced as fast as they can replace them with these 5,000 foot beauties so the 1900's can haul the loads.

It's a kerosene burning world up there now, and the fish cops are gonna be lonely flyers pretty soon.

Gump

Hammer wrote:Nick,
Good luck to you. I was just a couple years younger than you are when I started venturing down a similar path. By the time I finished flight school I'd pretty much changed my mind. It's not that I didn't love flying...it's just that the path to what I considered a good flying job required too many years spent living out of motels, hustling canceled checks from Lodi to LA, etc.. The joy of flying didn't compensate for what I considered to be a shit lifestyle. .........................................................Or maybe, like most flying people, you'll make your money elsewhere, then spend it all on your personal airplane. It's all good.

I didn't get involved with aviation until I was 38, was already making a decent living so wasn't too interested in a flying career. Takes too long to pay your dues and make your bones. Besides, I fly for fun... doing it for a living makes it a job which takes all the fun out of it for me.
Hammer, considering your "pushing a turd up a hill with a sharp stick" job comment a few weeks back, do you ever wish you'd continued to pursue a flying career?

Eric

mtv wrote:gbflyer,

You've got it backwards....Government employed pilots aren't the government competing with private industry. But, government hiring 135 pilots to fly resource missions is, in fact, private industry competing with inherently governmental function....

I was holding my tongue but I'm glad you said it. Some people just think their sh*t don't stink, huh?

I think that's what they call "out-sourcing".....

I can't comment on the USFS thing, but I too had a difficult time getting my initial first class medical due to "defective color vision". I'll never forget the day my AME told me I'd never have a career as a pilot. In his opinion he was doing me a favor by "giving it to me straight." However, he failed to inform me of my options for getting a color vision waiver or SODA (Statement Of Demonstrated Ability). Luckily, one of my friends knew I could apply for a waiver and obtain the first class medical I needed to get into the college program I was applying for. Basically, I had to fly with an FAA examiner and prove that I could see all of the applicable aviation colors. i.e. light gun signals, beacons, airport lighting. Once done, I had a first class medical without limitation, and it's all been good from there. I've been hired by five different airlines (thanks to a few furloughs) and my waiver hasn't been an issue yet. I'm not sure if a waiver is an option for you, but it's worth looking into. Call AOPA and talk with one of their medical certification specialists. They know what can be done and what to do to make it work. Don't give up until you've exhausted all of your options. Good luck,

Matt

MTV and once&futr_alaskaflyer,

Your responses are exactly what I would expect, and that's OK. If I had a job burning government fuel and abusing government equipment, I'd be trying to protect my job, too.

I respect law enforcement people, don't misunderstand me and I never thought of it from the law enforcement standpoint. Thanks for the explanation. How often does a USFW Officer or NPS Ranger draw a weapon on another human being while flying in AK? Where I live, the Alaska State Troopers are the game wardens, and they fly around in the state cub, or use a boat.

I am speaking from the standpoint of what the NPS aircraft was used for here...that was flying management back and forth to Juneau...a job much better suited for the private sector...which is how it happens now. A C185 on 8.00's does not a beach plane make (the damage took place on the asphalt, by the way). I cannot comment on the actions taken in other parts of the world.

I am not in the 135 business, nor do I ever intend to be. And I do agree that they obviously have more accidents than the feds, but they put in a lot more hours, too. As far as quality of pilots go, I really couldn't say. I do know that there are several really good single pilot 135 operators out there that have been doing it for years accident free, having no interest in "burning kerosene", unless maybe they could someday afford a turbine otter.

Oh yes, and my wife would not agree with the shit comment.

gb

A local part 135 outfit (172's & a 206) had a pretty good contract a few years ago flying clam-digger counts for the local DFW. One charter pilot, one DFW spotter. They didn't get rich on it but it was a nice little bread-and-butter job. Seemed pretty smart to me to outsource the flying part of that project. In fact, the only Washington DFW airplane I've ever seen has been a Beaver on wheels.
Kinda like a business that can't really justify having their own aircraft & all that it entails- they go for the charters or maybe a fractional ownership deal. It makes sense to me that the guv'mint do the same unless they do actually need an airplane and pilot full time.
Do most government flying jobs that you guys are familiar with use full-time employees or contract pilots?

Eric

Hammer, considering your "pushing a turd up a hill with a sharp stick" job comment a few weeks back, do you ever wish you'd continued to pursue a flying career?

Just to be clear, my job is pushing a soft turd up a steep hill with a sharp stick...I think the soft and steep are important.

If I could guarantee I'd still have met my wife, then ya...I wish I were flying for a living. Otherwise, no way. You never know what you're winning when you think you loose, or vice versa.

gbflyer wrote:I am not in the 135 business, nor do I ever intend to be. And I do agree that they obviously have more accidents than the feds, but they put in a lot more hours, too. As far as quality of pilots go, I really couldn't say. I do know that there are several really good single pilot 135 operators out there that have been doing it for years accident free, having no interest in "burning kerosene", unless maybe they could someday afford a turbine otter.

GB...

You guys have some GREAT Part 135 guys down your end of the state, that do some amazing flying year in, year out. I poked my nose into that world for a couple seasons and found it the hardest, most dangerous flying I've ever done. As long as they can keep those round engines flying and support the old equipment, more power to them. It will be a huge loss to the world of bush flying when that way of life and flying gets replaced by turbines and electronics.

But, that scenario has already happened in my old part of the world. Ted Stevens grabbed all the bypass-mail from the smaller carriers in 2003 and aimed it in the direction of the bigger (read that more $$$) outfits, basing mail weight on passenger numbers. That killed me and similar outfits, who ran small one horse shows in the C207's and Navajos. We survived on mail weight, and supplemented with back-haul passengers. It's all gone now.

USPS welfare? Probably, but we worked hard for our money, and never made much of a profit trying to keep worn out old equipment in the air. It was truly a labor of love. A love of the flying, and a love for the people and the land up there.

Now it's Caravans, B-200's and 1900's, all two pilot IFR, making GPS approaches into the villages. Big money, big business. Safer, much more efficient. Bleed air heat and comfort for the passengers, and a hell of a lot more weight hauling capability. But that connection between us pilots and the villages is gone, and the knowledge of the terrain from flying it low level for so many thousands of hours is gonna be nothing but a fast fading memory for old farts like me. The new guys don't even bother looking out the window, and heaven forbid they actually sit and have a smoke with an Eskimo in a village, and just listen and learn.

Gump

Gump, I hear ya there...it was a sad day when AS grabbed the mail contracts again for SE...the service has never been worse. Not only do they bleed us dry for a ticket, but now we suffer under their yoke for parcel delivery.

I think (hope) we'll be seeing the small aircraft operators in SE for years to come, too many places without airports, requiring floats.

For what it's worth, we get no AS service here in PAGS in the winter time, so the smaller carriers still handle the mail from PAJN to the outlying areas with no AS. Thank God for that, as often times in the summer there are more TSA standing around than there are passengers! There's 300 or so that reside here, so it's a fair amount of mail broken up between 2 operators. Those poor buggers who have to load and unload all that crap piece by piece want to fly a whole lot more than I do!

gb

gbflyer wrote:MTV and once&futr_alaskaflyer,

Your responses are exactly what I would expect, and that's OK. If I had a job burning government fuel and abusing government equipment, I'd be trying to protect my job, too.

I respect law enforcement people, don't misunderstand me and I never thought of it from the law enforcement standpoint. Thanks for the explanation. How often does a USFW Officer or NPS Ranger draw a weapon on another human being while flying in AK? Where I live, the Alaska State Troopers are the game wardens, and they fly around in the state cub, or use a boat.

I am speaking from the standpoint of what the NPS aircraft was used for here...that was flying management back and forth to Juneau...a job much better suited for the private sector...which is how it happens now. A C185 on 8.00's does not a beach plane make (the damage took place on the asphalt, by the way). I cannot comment on the actions taken in other parts of the world.

I am not in the 135 business, nor do I ever intend to be. And I do agree that they obviously have more accidents than the feds, but they put in a lot more hours, too. As far as quality of pilots go, I really couldn't say. I do know that there are several really good single pilot 135 operators out there that have been doing it for years accident free, having no interest in "burning kerosene", unless maybe they could someday afford a turbine otter.

Oh yes, and my wife would not agree with the shit comment.

gb

Th rangers in Glacier Bay lament the loss of their aircraft program, particularly the ones responsible for Dry Bay. Hard to police the commercial operators while at the same time expectig a ride from them.

Aside from that your comments about what the plane was used for are mostly true. In Arizona we mostly used our government plane as scheduled air service. Problem (if you want to call it that) was there the government could do it cheaper and better than the local 135 guy.

I still take issue with your comments, though, and MTV though he used a smiley was - I suspect - completely serious when he threw out that inherently governmental thing. I fight that battle around here every day - for some of us the idea that government employees should be flying government planes to conduct some government business is self-evident. There are those who would like to siphon off that business for no other reason than, well, they would like to siphon off that business.

Sorry about the scatological comment, I'm sure you are a MUCH better pilot than Mike Sharp and who among us doesn't like to make catty comments about our fellow pilots' skills?

We point our guns at other human beings about as often as any other game warden I suppose, which is to say, just often enough to make it important that we have instructors to tell us which end goes towards the other person

I like the nite flying hrs needed to qualify for flying in the arctic in the summer. Never saw much nite time when I was in the arctic summer.
The government needs to get back to allowing business to do their business and not have the biggest fleet of a/c in Ak. Time to cut taxes and cut gov. spending.

7853H wrote:I like the nite flying hrs needed to qualify for flying in the arctic in the summer. Never saw much nite time when I was in the arctic summer.
The government needs to get back to allowing business to do their business and not have the biggest fleet of a/c in Ak. Time to cut taxes and cut gov. spending.

Interesting comment. At no time in its history has the government relied more on privately-owned flight outfits to conduct its various business up here than now. But yep, we sure do need to get back to the old days.

Why, just the other day the Army announced that they are ending the Military Assistance to Traffic and Safety program out of Fort Wainright. No longer can the citizens of Alaska rely on mercy missions from Army Blackhawks to save their lives. That'll save you some tax money right there, and provide someone the business opportunity. Oops, did we mention that at present no civilian helicopter in the world can perform the mission up here like the UH-60 does, and that most missions will be eaten by the taxpayers regardless if a civilian or the Army does it, or that many missions will simply be shifted to the Air Force which has a longer response time and a per-mission cost that is probably quadruple the cost of the Army's? Stepped over a dollar to save a dime once again.

Too many people use one hand to give the government the finger while holding the other out for government money. That is a sickness found in every state not just in Alaska but we are at epidemic proportions up here

By the way the USFWS this week announced multiple collateral duty pilot position opportunites throughout the state. You can go to USAJOBS.OPM.GOV and search using the 0025 job series. You have to agree to being trained for and performing law enforcement duties, and have your CSEL, IR, and 500 hours PIC as discussed above. Your tax dollars at work