I response to several requests, I am posting my thoughts on a comparison between my Rans S-7S And my Savage Classic Cub.
As a disclaimer, I have only flown my Savage about 12 hours and half of that was a 500 mile X-country flight.
I had about 300 hours in the S-7.
These are just my current opinions and yours will probably vary.

My Rans was a professionally built ELSA aircraft intended as a factory / dealer demonstrator. It looked and felt like a factory built aircraft.
My Zlin is a factory built SLSA and is a high quality aircraft as well. As nearly as I can tell, it is a virtual clone of the older short tail S-7 with some upgrades.

Fit and Finish.
I would have to give the nod to the Rans. Mark at RMK is a consummate perfectionist and it shows in his builds.
But then it was used as a show piece and was nicer than most.
The Savage is well built and most everything works as it should but there are some design flaws. Mainly under the cowl.
Which brings up one item I really don't like on it.
The Cowl is very thin and almost too light weight. I would give up a few pounds for a more substantial cowling.
It is smaller than the S-7s cowling and things are packed a bit more tightly. But it has slightly better forward visibility.
One big niggle is that you have to remove the muffler to change the oil. I will be fixing that ASAP with some plumbing changes.

Creature comforts.
Again the S-7 is a bit nicer. The front seat is HARD to get into if you are a bigger build like me. The rear seat on the other hand is easier to get into and seems to be a bit roomier. The seats on the Savage are not adjustable. One size fits some.
My S-7 had Oregon Aero seats and the Savage will eventually get them too.
The Savage only has one door vs the S-7s two. But unless you plan on float operation it is not an issue.
Actually that gives the Savage a big plus on the placement of the throttle and the flap handle. Much better flight control ergonomics in the Savage.
No inertial reel for the front seat harness in the Savage. Another future mod.

Flight Characteristics.
Again, a disclaimer. I only have a dozen or so hours in the Savage and less than 400 hours of tailwheel time. So....
The Savage is a shorter airframe by about 18 inches. And, to me, it is very evident in almost all handling aspects. It requires more attention to keep it going in a straight line both on the ground and in the air. Not uncomfortably so but it is noticeable.
I find myself flying uncoordinated more than I like. But that is a "feel" thing and I'm sure I will work that out.
The S-7 needed a bit of rudder to initiate a turn but the Savage does not. A bit of stick and add rudder as needed. I'll get it eventually.
No spades on the Savage so it take more stick movement for the same effect as the S-7. But at least no Spade headache from smacking your head on them. If you have spades, you know what I mean.
Pitch Trim is the other issue I need to get used to. The S-7 was a "set it and forget it" aircraft. I could fly all day without needing to touch the trim.
The Savage requires frequent trim adjustments. But it can be set to fly hands off.
Both have fairly similar stall characteristics with no real break. Both have VGs. My S-7 only on the wing. The Savage has them on the elevator as well. I can't tell much difference with the round vs square tips and tail. Both had plenty of rudder authority although I fear the Savage will be more of a handful in a stiff cross wind.

Bits and pieces.
The Savage has aluminum fuel tanks vs the poly on the S-7. You could fill a whole thread on the pros and cons of both.
Sadly both only hold 18 gallons total. I like the small back windows on the savage and the turtle deck is wider as well. The effect is more visibility.
The sight tubes on the savage SUCK. Clear poly and clear gas make it hard to see the level quickly. Also the bottom 1/3 of the tube is impossible to see while seated so you really need to time your flights.
You can fly with the door off in the Savage. I really like that idea. 2 pins and instant air-conditioning in the summer.
BIG plus for the Savage is the Cub style gear legs. With 26" Airstreaks, (future mod) it will be a better rough strip aircraft.

Performance.
What can I say? The Savage wins hands down. It out climbs my S-7 and it is faster by at least 10mph.
Stall speeds are all but equal.
Some of it could be the prop. But I suspect it is more a function of lighter weight and smaller airframe with the same horsepower.

Could I choose a winner?
Nope. Kinda like choosing between the blonde or brunette super model.
Maybe the redhead but I can't afford a Carbon Cub either.

Cool write up! But you know the Rans is better just 'cuz.

Thanks S12. I will have a head to head S7S / S20 comparison in a few months.

Nice write up. If I had to replace my Rans, I'd buy another Rans. Wait, I did that already.

I dunno what I would do...might be inclined to get either the S20 Raven or the Kitfox 7SS. Since I am wanting to move into a side by side also, I have recently been checking the different models offered.
Although recently I picked up an uncompleted Kitfox IV, thinking it would be for my son, I may keep it for myself. He thinks he needs something with more usefull load. Since he is in Afganistan I have been helping him research and he likes the Kitfox 5 and later models. In my search I have come to really like both the Kitfox 7SS and the S20 Raven. I would be hard pressed if I had to decide between the two. The folding wing option of the KF would be nice, but the wider cabin and wider chord wing of the Raven is also something to consider. Before I do anything, I would have to sell all the planes and projects I have already acquired.

I am flying my second Rans S7 now and I couldn't be happier with the performance and handling. Apples for apples, I would buy American any day, even if it costs me a little more.

I've had 3 previous Rans aircraft and I would have bought another in a heartbeat if I could have found a reasonable priced one.
I sold mine while waiting for some lab and biopsy test reports that would have meant an long expensive treatment if positive.
I listed it fully expecting it to take weeks or even months for it to sell.
It sold in 6 hours.
Fortunately, my results came back encouraging so I decided to look for a replacement.
For weeks a broker and I scoured the ads on every aviation site we could find but the only suitable plane I could find was the Zlin.
There are a number of S-7s listed that have Jabirus but they were all over priced and the owners were unwilling to negotiate.
I found that very odd in light of the fact that they all have been listed in excess of 6 months.
Interestingly enough, one of them as a "new lower price" listed now that is 2 thousand dollars HIGHER than it was listed for a month ago.
Not to start a debate but I was not about to spend premium price for a Jabiru powered aircraft.
As far as buying an "American" aircraft.
Most "American" kit built Rans have an Austrian Rotax, Japanese electronics, Chinese paint and fabrics. Quite possibly all the wiring and fittings are imported as well.
Like most American cars and trucks, they are a collection of foreign parts assembled on an american built frame.
Rans make an excellent product and I would own one today if I could. But if I had held out for one, I would still be looking and life is way too short to waste waiting for a better opportunity.
I am very happy with my Zlin and I hope to have many fun adventures with it that would have passed by if I was still waiting for a Rans.

You did good S12. Kitplanes are a funny thing...cheaper to buy one already flying than to build. I try not to think about that to much[emoji23]

Nah... no one is faulting you for going with a Zlin. You got the right idea, live each day.

"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
-- James Dean

Charlie, I can sum it up in six words... YOU SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT A MAULE!

It has been fun watching the banter on this topic, but a little weird (kinda like listening to a bunch of guys talk about the girl that was your first love as a kid, and then years later hearing about how good she is in bed, or bad for that matter).

If you simply priced out the cost of a low time 100hp Rotax, the prop, the avionics, the main gear and the tail wheel, and just a few other bits, you can figure that the airframe was free. If you look at it that way, and figure that you didn't get a divorce for being in your garage for 2,000 hours building a kit, then I guess it was a so-so deal

Now quit arguing with the internet ninnies and go have a blast flying that bird in the beautiful stretch of Colorado you are in, and post some more bitchin videos!

Living vicariously through your flying,
Bob

Makes sense to me, the important thing is you're still flying. I wondered about the change, thanks for clearing that up. I did something similar when sold my T-Craft cheap (and quick), when I got sued by the EPA for $13,000,000.00 and change. My attorney advised me to divest myself of things they could seize if I lost. So for a couple years I was back to flying an unlicensed ultralight (a Titan Tornado, pretty fun). After settling the suit for $350.00 (I'm not making that up either) I got back into "real" airplanes, it's all good!

Those earlier short tailed S-7's and the Savages like them are quite a bit lighter for sure. But I find my S7S cruises about 10 mph faster then my earlier Soob powered shortie, mostly probably due to a draggy cowl with J-3 type cylinder heads sticking out in the breeze. But, I can also land the long tail slower, partially due to the flaps and how they are more effective ( no more gap at the fuselage) and maybe also the longer tail giving more pitch control deep into the stall.

Trust me, my S-7 was a lifetime dream come true. It was extremely difficult to let it go. I really thought it would take a while to sell. And that I would have had my test results before I was committed to selling it. Once I gave my word to the buyer, I would never back out on the deal.
Selling it was a dumb emotional mistake based on over 25 years of seeing hundreds of seemly healthy people walk into my O.R. and never leave the hospital. I didn't want my wife stuck with a plane to try and sell.

I do notice that the shorter tail Savage is harder to 3 point. My S-7 could hang out behind the curve longer and it was a bit more predictable at steep AOAs.
When the Savage quits flying in ground effect, it pretty much plops down right there. The S-7 felt a bit gentler when it stopped flying in ground effect. Some of that may be that I was able to drag the tailwheel on the S-7 because it was nearly 2 feet farther back. I'm sure I will get the "feel" of the Savage soon.
Fortunately for me, the gear on the Savage is sturdier than my S-7s and it doesn't seem to be bothered by my occasional firm landings.
Airstreaks will help a lot as well.
I think Savage has a shorter moment arm that allows the wing to drop faster in a stall but the Savage also accelerates faster so it starts flying again quickly.
One other issue I forgot to mention is that the S-7 was almost hard to bring the tail up with single puck brakes. The Savage requires a bit more finesse during hard braking. Not bad, but the tail does come up easier. Again, Airstreaks will improve that trait too.

I've flown several Titan Tornados. I really like them a lot. Probably the best light weight High Wing Pusher out there. I feel they are one of the more under-rated LSAs.

S-12Flyer wrote:Trust me, my S-7 was a lifetime dream come true. It was extremely difficult to let it go. I really thought it would take a while to sell. And that I would have had my test results before I was committed to selling it. Once I gave my word to the buyer, I would never back out on the deal.
Selling it was a dumb emotional mistake based on over 25 years of seeing hundreds of seemly healthy people walk into my O.R. and never leave the hospital. I didn't want my wife stuck with a plane to try and sell.

I do notice that the shorter tail Savage is harder to 3 point. My S-7 could hang out behind the curve longer and it was a bit more predictable at steep AOAs.
When the Savage quits flying in ground effect, it pretty much plops down right there. The S-7 felt a bit gentler when it stopped flying in ground effect. Some of that may be that I was able to drag the tailwheel on the S-7 because it was nearly 2 feet farther back. I'm sure I will get the "feel" of the Savage soon.
Fortunately for me, the gear on the Savage is sturdier than my S-7s and it doesn't seem to be bothered by my occasional firm landings.
Airstreaks will help a lot as well.
I think Savage has a shorter moment arm that allows the wing to drop faster in a stall but the Savage also accelerates faster so it starts flying again quickly.
One other issue I forgot to mention is that the S-7 was almost hard to bring the tail up with single puck brakes. The Savage requires a bit more finesse during hard braking. Not bad, but the tail does come up easier. Again, Airstreaks will improve that trait too.

I've flown several Titan Tornados. I really like them a lot. Probably the best light weight High Wing Pusher out there. I feel they are one of the more under-rated LSAs.

S-12,

I am really enjoying reading about the differences between the two airplanes. I love my Savage and was looking hard at S7's when I bought mine but they were all out of my price range if Rotax powered. What wheel and brake combo does your Savage have? Mine has the Marc Ingenio wheels and single puck brakes and they leave a little bit to be desired. I'm curious to hear what you are running. Zlin seems to change things up quite a bit on these little airplanes and no two seem to be identical.

I am glad to hear that everything worked out for you and that you are still flying and that you got back to flying so quick!

Mine has the Matco wheels and brakes. Single puck. The same as my S-7 had. They are fine for such a light weight plane and any more power would make the tail even lighter during the rare times I have to slow down fast. I do find myself on the brakes sooner in my Savage as it is not as stable directionally so I slow it down to a crawl sooner. My S-7 was more docile on the ground so I could let it slow down on its own most of the time.
Mine has the electric trim too. I seem to recall yours does not. Mine also has the new 21" Tundra tire option.
Mine was ground looped by a previous owner and a lot of upgrades were added during the repairs.
For an "SLSA" there seems to be a fair amount of variation among them. But they do have a lot of factory options.

S-12Flyer wrote:Mine has the Matco wheels and brakes. Single puck.

Would you mind, at some point posting a picture (or a few) of the inside of the wheel/brake/tires where it attaches to the gear leg?

I want to see how they adapted it vs the ingenio's. Thanks and keep the updates coming!

Edit: yes mine has manual trim. Its not a great design but i am used to it after 140 hours or so!

We found the single puck Matco with the high pressure kit to be very marginal on the S7 with 29" Airstreaks so we upgraded to double pucks and ditched the "el cheapo" poly brake lines for braided stainless kit. Not sure how the single pucks work on the 26". Guys will argue you don't need good brakes because it lands so slow yada yada...that is until I screw up and DO need brakes! So, now it stops, I assure you.

Like gb, I have single pucks (Matco) on my S7, albiet an older lighter short tail version. The single pucks worked perfectly with the 26" Airstreaks by AkBushwheels. I upgraded my tires to the 29" Airstreaks and will state the same experience as gb, single pucks are barely good enough to hold at run up. I will be adding another set of calipers to the pane before my flying resumes next spring.

Crzyivan13 wrote:

S-12Flyer wrote:Mine has the Matco wheels and brakes. Single puck.

Would you mind, at some point posting a picture (or a few) of the inside of the wheel/brake/tires where it attaches to the gear leg?

I want to see how they adapted it vs the ingenio's. Thanks and keep the updates coming!

Edit: yes mine has manual trim. Its not a great design but i am used to it after 140 hours or so!

Not the best photos but here you go.

Thanks! Thats exactly what i needed to see. They have made an adapter plate (the C shaped flat plate that the caliper bolts to) to adapt to the matco wheel/brake combo using the stock savage axle.

George at Matco can make most any sort of plate/adapter you can think of. He usually knows what you need before you do. Really like those guys, they get shit done.