So the preferred is Conti or Lycoming; lets discuss the pros/cons for each

Mapleflt wrote:So the preferred is Conti or Lycoming; lets discuss the pros/cons for each

Franklin. [emoji48]

Ok the Franklin can play along as well

Any more, I think it’s more a factor of availability of approvals (STC) and parts that suggest one or the other.

MTV

So the parts chain support which choice the best, this is where the Franklin may exit the conversation I'm afraid.

I’m thinking about this as well, here’s my understanding of the landscape of 170B engine upgrade options. My understanding comes mostly from reading about the topic on the internet, and one longish conversation with Dave Stoots at his hangar, so I am by no means an expert...

1) Del-air O-360 conversion. No web presence. Internet reports that one can call them and they are producing parts for the STC. One member on here reported trouble getting parts for the STC on his time frame, but mostly seems to be a well regarded and reasonably straight forward project. I don’t know what the cost of the STC and kit is.

2) Stoots STCs. He has a few including the lycoming IO-360M1 A & B, IO360 A1A ( which he says is 30 pounds heavier than the M1 series), and the IO-370. Seems like a fairly complete kit, and reasonable project. STC and kit is around 16k, new IO-360M1A is around 45k, new hartzell trailblazer is around 16k, plus maybe 80 hours of shop time. So not a cheap conversion. If you could find a mid time IO-360 M1A (used on diamond da-40) , might save some money.

3) xp-mods continental IO-360 conversion. Fits in the cowl with no modification. Internet reading suggests there’s quite a bit of fabrication and ingenuity involved in the project. There does not seem to be much web presence for the STC seller.

4) Franklin 220 etc. seems like it would make a great airplane. Someone somewhere will think it’d be easy to do, but not for the average guy like me who would need more available support etc.

5) Other. Various bush mods, avcon, Williams STC’s exist, but seem to be mostly abandoned and not supported.

6) The 0-470 conversion. i.e. sell the 170 and buy a 180. Probably the most cost effective solution, until you start deciding whether to convert the 180 to a 0-550 or the various 470 to 520 type things.

Upsides of the conversions in my mind:
1) performance obviously. No question that getting off sooner and climbing faster would be nice
2) constant speed. Not all conversions go with a cs prop, but allows for improving both takeoff and climb as well as cruise
3) resale values are strong. Who am I kidding?

Downsides:
1) no use of auto gas on any of the conversions legally. A big deal if on straight skis (at least in the northeast), or for me at the home field where there’s no 100ll, but etoh-free mogas is available on my way to the airport.
2) most people would like more fuel than the standard 170 tanks. There are solutions, but expensive

So I know popular belief is that franklins aren't supported, but I have not found that to b the case. Susan is doing a great job of supplying parts and support. I work on 4 -220 powered airplanes in northern Alberta and have not had issues getting parts/support. There is a new guy, Glade, who has taken over the STC and is producing conversion kits for the 170/172/175, and there is a great engine shop doing overhauls. The kit from glade is 15k and includes everything needed minus the engine and prop. New/OHed -220 from Susan is 32k, and prop can be found quite reasonable as people upgrade theirs to MTs etc. I'm a big fan of the franklin, it pulls hard and runs great.

Dirt911 wrote:I’m thinking about this as well, here’s my understanding of the landscape of 170B engine upgrade options. My understanding comes mostly from reading about the topic on the internet, and one longish conversation with Dave Stoots at his hangar, so I am by no means an expert...

1) Del-air O-360 conversion. No web presence. Internet reports that one can call them and they are producing parts for the STC. One member on here reported trouble getting parts for the STC on his time frame, but mostly seems to be a well regarded and reasonably straight forward project. I don’t know what the cost of the STC and kit is.

2) Stoots STCs. He has a few including the lycoming IO-360M1 A & B, IO360 A1A ( which he says is 30 pounds heavier than the M1 series), and the IO-370. Seems like a fairly complete kit, and reasonable project. STC and kit is around 16k, new IO-360M1A is around 45k, new hartzell trailblazer is around 16k, plus maybe 80 hours of shop time. So not a cheap conversion. If you could find a mid time IO-360 M1A (used on diamond da-40) , might save some money.

3) xp-mods continental IO-360 conversion. Fits in the cowl with no modification. Internet reading suggests there’s quite a bit of fabrication and ingenuity involved in the project. There does not seem to be much web presence for the STC seller.

4) Franklin 220 etc. seems like it would make a great airplane. Someone somewhere will think it’d be easy to do, but not for the average guy like me who would need more available support etc.

5) Other. Various bush mods, avcon, Williams STC’s exist, but seem to be mostly abandoned and not supported.

6) The 0-470 conversion. i.e. sell the 170 and buy a 180. Probably the most cost effective solution, until you start deciding whether to convert the 180 to a 0-550 or the various 470 to 520 type things.

Upsides of the conversions in my mind:
1) performance obviously. No question that getting off sooner and climbing faster would be nice
2) constant speed. Not all conversions go with a cs prop, but allows for improving both takeoff and climb as well as cruise
3) resale values are strong. Who am I kidding?

Downsides:
1) no use of auto gas on any of the conversions legally. A big deal if on straight skis (at least in the northeast), or for me at the home field where there’s no 100ll, but etoh-free mogas is available on my way to the airport.
2) most people would like more fuel than the standard 170 tanks. There are solutions, but expensive

Pretty good summary IMHO. Seems you’re in New England but if you find yourself back at Stoots’ hangar you should wander next door to Chena Marina and have a chat with Mark. The range of the IO 360 M1B holds its own, decently enough. Nice not having to dink with header tanks as well.
Cheers,
-DP

deleted

shortfielder wrote:Unless you are REALLY attached to your 170, I think it would be MUCH more cost effective to buy a nice one done. And as for range, I can put you a relatively cheap path using 175 wings. Sell the 170 wings, buy 175 wings and a couple days to switch'em over. Relatively cheap and easy.

He is in Canada, and that conversion is not an easy mod I Canada. We don't have field approvals here, and LSTCs are not cheap.

Unless you are REALLY attached to your 170, I think it would be MUCH more cost effective to buy a nice one done. And as for range, I can put you a relatively cheap path using 175 wings. Sell the 170 wings, buy 175 wings and a couple days to switch'em over. Relatively cheap and easy. I've had a couple with the 180 lyc/CSP and think they are great for up to 2 and camping.

I agree that it's always going to be cheaper to buy one that's already converted. That's what I did. I also looked for over a year, and that was back when there were a few for sale. Nowadays, good luck finding one.

Before I leaped into one of these conversions, in any case, I'd do some serious investigation of how well the kit is supported. As someone noted, if you're a mechanic or have a lot of skills, and TIME to search for stuff, an unsupported STC might be fine. But, paying someone else to do it.....is going to cost.

So, in most cases, a complete kit, in current production is likely to be the best program. Unless you like projects more than flying.

MTV

shortfielder wrote:Unless you are REALLY attached to your 170, I think it would be MUCH more cost effective to buy a nice one done. And as for range, I can put you a relatively cheap path using 175 wings. Sell the 170 wings, buy 175 wings and a couple days to switch'em over. Relatively cheap and easy. I've had a couple with the 180 lyc/CSP and think they are great for up to 2 and camping.

Having done the 175 wing thing; my vote is for the DelAir extended range STC.
1. 170 wings don't sell for much at all. You'll probably be negative buying the 175 wings or worse if they don't need any work. If they need work, you'll be really negative. Or, you could list the wings for a ridiculously cheap price and still have them sit in your dad's hangar for five years... Either way, don't bank on getting much of anything out of your old wings.
2. A field approval is needed for the 175 wings (In the US). And we all know how much fun field approvals can be.
3. 175 field approvals bring over the 175's unusable fuel limitations of nine gallons vs your old five. IE all your time, effort and money got you an extra six gallons of gas with 30 pounds of useful load gone. DelAir STC retains the original five gallons unusable so you get ten gallons usable with no useful load penalty. (queue the endless debate on how much fuel is actually usable....)

food for thought

I was very impressed with the Stoots conversions, and the man himself, at the airmen's show last year.

I like fuel injection so I'd go for an IO360 or 370.

I'm a fan of Continental 360's, but Stoots has his shit together and you can call him up and get parts/help/whatever.

Everyone knows this isn't financially easy, but if you like your 170, just spend the money and do it. I bet you won't regret it.

1. 170 wings don't sell for much at all. You'll probably be negative buying the 175 wings or worse if they don't need any work. If they need work, you'll be really negative. Or, you could list the wings for a ridiculously cheap price and still have them sit in your dad's hangar for five years... Either way, don't bank on getting much of anything out of your old wings.
2. A field approval is needed for the 175 wings (In the US). And we all know how much fun field approvals can be.
3. 175 field approvals bring over the 175's unusable fuel limitations of nine gallons vs your old five. IE all your time, effort and money got you an extra six gallons of gas with 30 pounds of useful load gone. DelAir STC retains the original five gallons unusable so you get ten gallons usable with no useful load penalty. (queue the endless debate on how much fuel is actually usable....)

1. When I did mine a few years ago, I bought a nice se of 175 wings for what I sold my nice stock 170 wings for.
2.I went through the process and have the engineering paperwork for the swap.
3.I think the fuel limitation was only on paper.
4. I probly had less than a $1000.00 in the swap when I was done vs. the $10,000.00 Del Air wanted for their extended tanks.
Was worth it for me.

YMMV

I just bought a Delair STC and Kit, never installed. I changed the STC to my airframe with Delair, Chris is very helpful.

It is very complete, down to breakers and wire and terminals. The mount and exhaust are beautiful.

I am looking for an O-360 A1A or D, in Canada as a core or mid time. The USD is SOOOO strong right now.

Prop is an issue, the obvious way to go is a modern composite, but the budget is high. I will probably start off with a Hartzell, hopefully one without the 100hr AD.

daedaluscan wrote:I just bought a Delair STC and Kit, never installed. I changed the STC to my airframe with Delair, Chris is very helpful.

It is very complete, down to breakers and wire and terminals. The mount and exhaust are beautiful.

I am looking for an O-360 A1A or D, in Canada as a core or mid time. The USD is SOOOO strong right now.

Prop is an issue, the obvious way to go is a modern composite, but the budget is high. I will probably start off with a Hartzell, hopefully one without the 100hr AD.

Thanks for the real world input. I think the relative advantage of the del-air set up is the abundance of 0-360’s out there to help bring the total cost down.

On the other hand the IO-370 would be cool to have. Anyone know the ballpark price of the IO-370 prime engine?

Bagarre wrote:

shortfielder wrote:Unless you are REALLY attached to your 170, I think it would be MUCH more cost effective to buy a nice one done. And as for range, I can put you a relatively cheap path using 175 wings. Sell the 170 wings, buy 175 wings and a couple days to switch'em over. Relatively cheap and easy. I've had a couple with the 180 lyc/CSP and think they are great for up to 2 and camping.

Having done the 175 wing thing; my vote is for the DelAir extended range STC.
1. 170 wings don't sell for much at all. You'll probably be negative buying the 175 wings or worse if they don't need any work. If they need work, you'll be really negative. Or, you could list the wings for a ridiculously cheap price and still have them sit in your dad's hangar for five years... Either way, don't bank on getting much of anything out of your old wings.
2. A field approval is needed for the 175 wings (In the US). And we all know how much fun field approvals can be.
3. 175 field approvals bring over the 175's unusable fuel limitations of nine gallons vs your old five. IE all your time, effort and money got you an extra six gallons of gas with 30 pounds of useful load gone. DelAir STC retains the original five gallons unusable so you get ten gallons usable with no useful load penalty. (queue the endless debate on how much fuel is actually usable....)

food for thought

I agree on the 175 wings. Unless you can find a set for peanuts....wouldn't go there due largely to the 9 gallon unuseable fuel.

That said, a friend modified the 175 wings he installed on his 170, and wound up with much lower unusable fuel. Not sure what he did, but he told me he basically converted the 175 tanks to 170 tanks....

The other disadvantage of the 175 tanks is the filler is pretty far aft. Designed for use on trigear. It's a LONG reach on a step ladder to the fillers when mounted on a taildragger.

MTV