When I bought my A185F it was advertised as having Micro VG’s. But I had strange looking contraptions on top of the wings, inboard near the fuselage. Looking in the logbooks I found the VG STC and it was not Micro but rather ATS. That still didn’t explain the “contraptions”. For nearly a year, off and on, I’d search for what they might be. Eventually I found a name for them from a picture, “Delta Wings”. Okay but what do they do? More searching and going down many rabbit holes and I learned that they were designed by Paul Robertson and part of the original VG kit, even though I never found documentation stating so. The Delta Wings are Robertson’s solution to energizing air on the tail, instead of adding VG’s to the tail.

I also learned that Robertson had some partners over the years and he and/or them formed different companies, in particular BLR and ATS. But the company that now held my plane’s VG STC was Cub Crafters, not ATS. When Stene Aviation installed the Sportsman STOL and WingX Extensions he wanted to add VG’s to the WingX. He is the only other person I’ve met who knew, based on the Delta Wings, who had the STC and the VGs.

Well I’m excited to say that even though my A185F was orphaned by Cessna long ago, my VG’s and Delta Wings are back, and back home with BLR.

A few weeks ago I received this letter in the mail. It’s great to know that if one of my Delta Wings was to get damaged I can once again get a new one, as although Cub Crafters had the VGs they didn’t have the Delta Wings.

Reading this letter I found it interesting that the speed reduction numbers are actually certified by the FAA. I hadn’t been aware of that.

The letter was sent to me as an A185F owner, but both the letter and the website state they have VG kits for both 180’s and 185’s (presumably other models).

My new to me 180 has VGs. I thought it was strange since they're only installed on the wings and not the tail. While looking through the logbook I found they are also ATS (Aeronautical Testing Service), I had never heard of them. I have heard of BLR though, you're saying they are the same thing? My plane doesn't have the "delta wings" by the wing root though.

robw56 wrote:My new to me 180 has VGs. I thought it was strange since they're only installed on the wings and not the tail. While looking through the logbook I found they are also ATS (Aeronautical Testing Service), I had never heard of them. I have heard of BLR though, you're saying they are the same thing? My plane doesn't have the "delta wings" by the wing root though.

ATS website is still up. A couple of years ago I contacted them to get the POH supplement for their (formerly BLR) STC as when I got the plane their was no owners manual with it. Probably best to give them a call, and give them your STC number and find out if you are missing anything, including the supplement. And yes, BLR had the STC before ATS, then ATS, don't know if there was anyone between ATS and Cub Crafters. I stumbled across the CC STC when I found a Robertson STOL promotional video on their website years ago, last time I checked that video was gone from their website.


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Thanks for the info, Phil.

Which brings to question, which is better? BLR or Micro? I've heard guys that have the BLR really like them.

Can any one post a picture of the Delta Wings and explain how they are supposed to do what they do? This is something I've thought about for a while, and I'd like to see what someone else came up with and how they think it works.

EZFlap wrote:Can any one post a picture of the Delta Wings and explain how they are supposed to do what they do? This is something I've thought about for a while, and I'd like to see what someone else came up with and how they think it works.

Here is a photo when the 185 was at Willie Stene's. He was in the process of relocating the Delta Wings from the original wing location forward onto the Sportsman STOL.



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Wow, that's interesting. Thank you for posting the photo.

And here is one of the original links I stumbled across that talks about the evolution of VGs:

http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/182564-1.html

And some other info...

http://www.midcont.com/pdf/July2013.pdf

I'll give BLR a call on Monday and see what I can learn about the Delta Wings now that they are selling them again.

Nice to see what one looks like, I'd been searching for a picture!

Here's what is going on: Delta shapes at high AoA generate large vortices. On an actual delta wing airplane this gives the ability to generate tons of lift at high AoA because the vortices "reach up" and entrain free-stream air which gets drug back down into the boundary layer. The entrained free-stream air has more energy than the boundary layer and re-energizes it, allowing it to stay attached to the airfoil at AoAs that are way beyond where it would have otherwise detached (stall).

The vortex can carry high energy air for a while, which makes sense if they're using them to energize the tail.

Here's some pictures:

A delta wing, showing the vortex contours.


The leading edge extensions on the F-18 Hornet work in the same way - use a delta wing to create large vortices to re-energize the boundary layer, increasing maneuverability and delaying the departure from controlled flight.

I believe that GlasStars are fitted with a couple of those delta wings on each wing.

Re BLR VG kits: a friend of mine had Cub Crafters do a ground-up Supercub rebuild for him a number of years ago. It had VG's, since CC handled BLR at the time I'm guessing that's what was on it. The VG kit included a set of strakes (?) on the side of the fuselage in front of the horizontal. I assume they were meant to channel the air over the horizontal for more control effectiveness.

hotrod180 wrote:I believe that GlasStars are fitted with a couple of those delta wings on each wing.

Re BLR VG kits: a friend of mine had Cub Crafters do a ground-up Supercub rebuild for him a number of years ago. It had VG's, since CC handled BLR at the time I'm guessing that's what was on it. The VG kit included a set of strakes (?) on the side of the fuselage in front of the horizontal. I assume they were meant to channel the air over the horizontal for more control effectiveness.

I saw those on a Glastar Sportsman at OSH last year and asked the rep what they were for--not something I was familiar with at all. They're an option, and all he could say is that they lower the stall speed, but he had no info on how they work.

Cary

EZFlap wrote:Wow, that's interesting. Thank you for posting the photo.

Have the same thing on my Glastar! 4 of them instead of just 2

At least one of the wing mods on the Beaver has two on each wing.....they called them "vortilons".

Cub Crafters bought the BLR VG Kit for the Cub several years ago.

MTV

Installed kit on a 185 with the delta wings. BLR from Cubcrafters.

Paul Robertson an aeronautical engineer who owns Aeronautical Testing Service (ATS) was the developer of the VG kits with the delta wings / vortilons. It looks like they still hold the A185 one mentioned in the original post. They still hold many of the STCs, (Super Cub was sold to Cub Crafters as mentioned) but they are marketed by others some of the time, ie BLR. Paul provided input on the Glastar design (big vertical tail and delta usage). They sell replacement parts for all their kits so check the FAA website to see who holds your STC for sure, then call them for your parts.

I believe most of the players who sell VG kits all started together as partners. Now they are all separate with some competing kits.

The delta wings do some pretty amazing things for directional stability and roll controllability all the way through stall. I've seen it demonstrated in the Glastar, but the other airplanes with them behave similarly.

Phil,

Thank you and everyone so much for posting about this.

I am looking very closely at a 73 185 that has the Sportsman stol kit along with VG's that have the delta wing at each wing root.
I have wondered what that goofy looking thing was now I know.

Tom

a3holerman wrote:Phil,

Thank you and everyone so much for posting about this.

I am looking very closely at a 73 185 that has the Sportsman stol kit along with VG's that have the delta wing at each wing root.
I have wondered what that goofy looking thing was now I know.

Tom

If you get the '73 Wagon don't forget to share pictures with us.

Okay so I'll fess up, I didn't know what a Glastar was, at least not by its name, so Googled to find some pics. Came across this one that shows the Delta wings, I was surprised to see them outboard as well as in board. Definitely want to learn more about these "contraptions". And want to see photos/videos of big tire Glastars in action.

.

Phil, good thread. I've never heard of BLR VG's until now.

Hope this isn't a thread drift. On your 185 you have the Sportsman STOL, WingX, and BLR VG's, with a moderate light load, how slow will it fly?