I've never been.
I want to go really bad.
I would very much like to go and stay for both events.

That being said, I thought the grass was maintained for the pilots. Sorta like the grass at Wimbledon is maintained for the players. By the end of the tourney, the grass has a few worn spots, they don't stop playing for two weeks to get the grass pretty.

Play on.

No way in hell this is about the grass.


Mercifully Free From the Ravages of Intelligence

Sitting here drinking my morning coffee and reflecting. Interesting how these airports have been built for airplanes then IDOT tells us not to use them. It is such a short season in the Idaho mountains we don't need restriction when the snow is gone. JC is not even in the wilderness.

If push comes to shove I say SCORG should have the first pick as they were doing this before BCPORG. Correct me if that is wrong.

G'Day

NoCOpilot wrote:Just curious, who was concerned, and about what specifically?

Folks visiting/camping at the other strips. Large gatherings with plenty of accidents are what many fear would initiate administrative changes that affect all aviation users (including locals) in the back country. I don't think that would be so surprising to most people. Some of the opinions expressed included wanting regulation to end mass gatherings- I disagree strongly with those sentiments, but it is clear the folks who have concerns/dislikes over large gatherings are not limited to the yet-to-be-met-in-real-life 'tree huggers' or 'radical enviros'...it's pilots too.

I visited a dozen or so strips over 3 weeks, but did not run into many BCP folks at all outside of the strips closer to JC, a couple of Big Creek strips, and the breakfast spots. For me personally, the impact wasn't much. The large amount of noise in the morning was possibly significant for other users. The folks taking pictures and vids of the broken plane at Soldier Bar when I arrived, and making odd insinuations about the pilot's misfortunes and abilities, barely knew I was there, and I left an hour and a half later with a creel full of whitefish before they were done pontificating on the finer points of skillful supercubbery they wanted to bestow on the world. Same that evening at Cabin Creek.

I stopped at JC for a few hours, and only had two impressions: drunk pasty fat dudes with jiggly body parts running out onto the airstrip at JC giving the finger to departing aircraft, and accounts that lots of people had a nice time. Whatever it was all about was probably not a common denominator for most pilots using the backcountry airstrips. I talked with perhaps 20 fly campers who either fled the JC thing, or who knew ahead of time that large gatherings were not their thing...mostly locals. I don't think that's so surprising. To each their own.

I think it is sad to see some react to the free showers, internet, and a fully staffed, putting-green quality airstrip by implying the staffers are lazy and should have given everyone an after dinner mint on their pillows. Maybe Oregon does that for folks who whine enough. I'm not used to feeling that sense of entitlement.

Good luck with making next year's event a safer one!

Lesuther,

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but the eco-nazis really are out there and they're in the Middle Fork Country. Perhaps they're a little more discrete about what they post publicly, but here's one example: http://wildernessvagabond.com/salmon4/salmon4.htm

Never mind that this guy benefitted from the supply flights for the Little Creek Guard Station and that he later enjoyed flying with friends in order to do a shuttle backpack trip down the Middle Fork Trail. It's all of those other people flying that really get his goat. The proficiency flights and the party at the Middle Fork Lodge really unhinged him.

CAVU

Here are my thoughts on the BCP/SC fly-in.

1) Combining the BCP/SC fly-in will not work. As of right now, we have a 100 airplane per event limit set by the IDA that the event organizers (Dave and Bryan) agree to (a few transient planes happen to arrive each year that are not apart of the fly-in). Combining these two events will well exceed that number. Also, one huge fly-in will also be easier to stop than two large fly-ins. Dave and a few of us agree that this is not the direction we should go.

2) If these rules go into effect, we may want to start looking into different dates/locations. I'm all for seeing if West Fork Lodge, Flying B, Mackey, etc would like to "host" a large fly-in. I'm sure we will not hit 100+ airplanes if we change locations, but I don't see that as a huge negative. I really enjoyed camping at Moose Creek, but with only 1 outhouse that location will not support our large numbers. It would also be refreshing to see someone welcome us (and our $$$).

3) Dave mentioned that the SC.org and BCP.org fly-in could alternate years at JC. This might be a solution, but I agree with others when saying that the SC.org fly-in has priority over ours.

4) The JC caretakers this year were beyond great. They deserve no foul talk and I doubt they have any part in this.

5) For having 100+ planes, I felt that this years BCP fly-in was organized and well behaved.

Changes are gonna happen, how would you like to proceed?

MM

Good points Matt. For #3, the alternating deal, I'd bet many of those that attend one will end up attending the other one on their off year, thereby still increasing the numbers quite a bit. My vote would be for both SC and BCP to continue annual fly-ins, but rotate locations if possible. I like attending both.

Seems to me I recently read that Garden Valley has all sorts of new amenities.
Would make some of the more southern strips easier to get to and offload some of the "pressures" on the others.

the camping area a t Garden is rather small for a large fly in so most would have to camp under wing... Moose creek also has a ranger station and water is only available at the station not at the various campsites... Last time I was at Moose creek I was waiting out afternoon winds and got into conversation with the head ranger... SHe was openly against any general aviation in the back country. Sort of took the attitude that it was her back country and area.. Not that she has any say in the matter but it's something to take into consideration when planning a large fly in... I'm just offering these comments as things I've learned over the many years I've been up there... Local pilots might know the same bits of info... Big Creek used to host fly ins and one year the Mauler's had theirs there...and If you go to the Maule site the picture at the top is at Big Creek.... But since the place burned down it only gets sporadic visits... but it still has campsites and is rather easy to land and take off from for those new to mountain flying...when you come right down to it there really isn't any place like JC that can handle that many aircraft...has anyone considered approaching the Sulphur creek people.. It's private and has cabins and tents could be put anywhere there's grass... They might just be open to having 50 or so aircraft there buying breakfast Lunch and Dinner, and kids can fish in the pond which happens to be loaded with 16-20inch trout...... Just a thought...maybe the answer is a couple fly ins with about 50 at each.. with so many having summer scheduling problems and two to choose from, one maybe early like this year and another about now or the end of July. It would require a gentlemans agreement from all to not show up at the same one..I didn't go this year cause it's really too early for good stream fishing but a fly in with about the same number as went to caveman later in the summer might be nice... at least you could get into the shower...and not crap your pants waiting to take a dump....any way.. It seems the powers that be are somewhat concerned about over use, whether you agree or not, and I dare say pissing them off with a bigger and longer fly in doesn't seem to me what they had in mind... I just love it up there as do all of you and it seems to be somewhat threatened now so that's why I voiced my concerns...

lesuther wrote:I think it is sad to see some react to the free showers, internet, and a fully staffed, putting-green quality airstrip by implying the staffers are lazy and should have given everyone an after dinner mint on their pillows. Maybe Oregon does that for folks who whine enough. I'm not used to feeling that sense of entitlement.

We know all know who this slam is meant for. I stand by my commits. I don't think this is about the grass or the caretakers. lesuther I get you don't care for my attitude. That's fine. Do you know, but with out several fine people on this site and SC.org there wouldn't be internet at JC.

Depending on how this all shakes out I'll still go to JC when ever I damn well please! I'll gather a bunch of my flying buddies and we will just show up unannounced. I have no problem taking my posse of Airborn Motocross Outlaws off the fourm for this trip and organize it all by email. There problem solved

Huh???? See when I get away from the puter a few days a whole lotta shit happens that I have no clue of... maybe that's for the best... anyway that's what I've always done .... just show up at JC whenever I happen to pack and go...but for me it's usually end of July beginning of august. and hope there aren't too many fires by then...

LAX was mentioned so I'll follow up. I'll be escaping the sand box and arriving on big smokey Saturday afternoon, how about a BCP fly-in? I have a few hours after clearing customs, we could meet up at one of the fine terminal restaurants for an early dinner before I jump in the a$$ end of a Brasilia. If they are going to kick us out of Idaho we could show them where we could go if pushed hard enough. lol.

Sorry I gotta miss this fly in too. Gotta go to SF on Wed.. Wife is getting award for being director of the best Hospice in the US of A... by the Nat'l Paliative care board...I'll also miss a certain fly in in the desert with a few of my brothers from another group of brothers...Heh Heh Heh....

Congratulations to her. I didn't really think I would get a lot of enthusiasm for an LAX fly-in, but it never hurts to ask.

Changes are gonna happen, how would you like to proceed?

Let's not get our panties in a wad over this thread. Let's just plan for JC next year and see where it takes us. I Haven't seen anything from the state yet announcing any changes in their policies. June is a great month in the Idaho backcountry, if we had to adjust one week it would still be great.
J

The last two weeks of June and the first week of July are often the best times for the Idaho back country to avoid rain/snow, summer heat, and fires. JC is hands down the most accommodating *back country-ish* airstrip up there. If you want to delay it a week, it might be preferable to shifting it to another strip.

Alternatively, while Hamilton is outside the back country, there are very large areas of open grass for camping, and it could accommodate 100+ planes, with sanitation and other services, and might allow the gathering to grow if that is what people want. I think it is easy to assume the local airport governance there would practically leap on a credible proposal. Hamilton is close to a lot of back country strips, particularly the larger northern ones that might be more attractive to less familiar pilots to dip their toes in the water. It would create a different experience. It is a gorgeous place, though. Easier to drive to as well.

The West Fork Lodge...it's a neat place with a hard working owner. 100+ might not be possible. Sulphur is light on facilities. Elk City... Dixie.... similar issues.

Moose does have more facilities...showers, etc., but it is doubtful they could/should ever be called into service. They've never been *officially* open to the public. The ranger there finally broke the camel's back and is being transferred outta there. The caretakers are very accommodating and fun to talk to. Expect favorable changes in the next couple of years...especially with some constructive, helpful advocacy. Imagine the return of more pit toilets, some old school tables...but it will take years to create what has been undone if it can be done at all.

she was in the process of cutting back the camping facilities when I was there and talked to her... I asked her how they got all those roofing supplies in to redo the roofs on the buildings... She said they were flown in... So it's ok if the flying is for the forest service but not for taxpayers to fly in and enjoy the back country I said... she got up and walked off...glad she's gone... it's a beautiful strip and place to camp..not to mention the good fishing...

CAVU,

I'd love to see more examples if you have them...that one was almost 7 years ago. I don't doubt people are talking about this, I just haven't been able to find anything other than what is on this site and SC.

For everyone else's benefit, don't bother reading the link below. I skimmed it all and found just a few references in passing about airplanes...in reality, I did not read as him becoming "unhinged"...the ones that were mentioned were mostly about the commercial operators as well as the ones delivering the authors' supplies. Really nothing too upsetting, and certainly not a call for change...the authors' big gripe seemed to be that the FS was not doing enough to maintain the trail network.

CAVU wrote:Lesuther,

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but the eco-nazis really are out there and they're in the Middle Fork Country. Perhaps they're a little more discrete about what they post publicly, but here's one example: http://wildernessvagabond.com/salmon4/salmon4.htm

Never mind that this guy benefitted from the supply flights for the Little Creek Guard Station and that he later enjoyed flying with friends in order to do a shuttle backpack trip down the Middle Fork Trail. It's all of those other people flying that really get his goat. The proficiency flights and the party at the Middle Fork Lodge really unhinged him.

CAVU

iceman wrote:she was in the process of cutting back the camping facilities when I was there and talked to her... I asked her how they got all those roofing supplies in to redo the roofs on the buildings... She said they were flown in... So it's ok if the flying is for the forest service but not for taxpayers to fly in and enjoy the back country I said... she got up and walked off...glad she's gone... it's a beautiful strip and place to camp..not to mention the good fishing...

The crews used to manufacture the shakes with an adze, a crosscut, etc., when I was there in the 80's with tools that are still hanging today on the wall there. A lost art...and now they are flying them in? Wow.

She will be there till the fall, I understand.

The USFS used to be interested in preservation of things/tools/arts like that, and it was pretty darned neat to see. Perhaps they'll be able to bring it back again.

an interesting note I learned also... they were thinning out the trees that were a possible hazard in the camp area... now you would think they'd just get a chain saw and start cutting... Oh Nay Nay.... they got the army or somebody like that to come in with c 4 and wrap the trees with c4 and blow them up... Her reason was that they looked more naturally taken down than cut with a chain saw and also she felt that the stumps would decay faster if left with jagged edges rather than a smooth level cut....and yeah they had all the roofing material flown in on a c 47...I was glad she got up and walked off cause I was just about to head back to the Maule and sit by myself.. Dumb B"""ch...

iceman wrote:Sorry I gotta miss this fly in too. Gotta go to SF on Wed.. Wife is getting award for being director of the best Hospice in the US of A... by the Nat'l Paliative care board...I'll also miss a certain fly in in the desert with a few of my brothers from another group of brothers...Heh Heh Heh....

Hey Ice.
Congats to the wife!! Takes a VERY special person to do that. Been the director of a surgical department for a lot of years. Seen my share of death and dying but but no way could I handle hospice.
My hats off to her!