Thank you for your post. My 172H has the original hold-it-to-fold-it switch. The indicator is a small (2.5”) gauge located on the panel under the right control yoke….a distraction in the best of circumstances.
I learned to fly in a 172 and a RC100, both with manual flaps. I’m comfortable with them and like the fact that I have immediate control rather than the slow “wait for it” response of the electric flaps. Also, having to watch the gauge in a tight situation is
problematic.
Some years ago I was landing at at a small, uncontrolled airstrip, full flaps down. Just before I reached the threshold to start my flare, a T-craft taxiing alongside the strip, pulled onto the runway and accelerated for takeoff. I was able to Immmediately dump flaps to 10 and power up and to the side, avoiding the collision. This all happened in mere seconds. I believe that if I had electric flaps.
the response time would have been too slow to avoid a collision.

To the point: if I must keep the electric flaps. I am at least changing the switch to an auto-up switch and move the gauge to a more visible area on the panel. But I would rather have the manual system.

BTW; the T-craft flew away, oblivious as to how close he almost had become a pancake!

mtv wrote:
I much prefer not to reach way down to grab flaps initially. Apparently not ape-like enough…..

MTV

Flame suit on. I installed an EZ flap handle for my wife who could not physically reach the flap handle about five years ago. I love it, the handle is right by the throttle and I don’t have to look for it my hand just falls on it. I rarely put flaps in before I start to roll and just pop them to leave the runway.

I know that there has been much ridicule for them, but I really like it.

daedaluscan wrote:

mtv wrote:
I much prefer not to reach way down to grab flaps initially. Apparently not ape-like enough…..

MTV

Flame suit on. I installed an EZ flap handle for my wife who could not physically reach the flap handle about five years ago. I love it, the handle is right by the throttle and I don’t have to look for it my hand just falls on it. I rarely put flaps in before I start to roll and just pop them to leave the runway.

I know that there has been much ridicule for them, but I really like it.

Way to “own” it!

daedaluscan wrote:

mtv wrote:
I much prefer not to reach way down to grab flaps initially. Apparently not ape-like enough…..

MTV

Flame suit on. I installed an EZ flap handle for my wife who could not physically reach the flap handle about five years ago. I love it, the handle is right by the throttle and I don’t have to look for it my hand just falls on it. I rarely put flaps in before I start to roll and just pop them to leave the runway.

I know that there has been much ridicule for them, but I really like it.

Hey, again, if it works for you, it’s your plane. I’ve checked out four women, most of them pretty petite, in Cessna 185s. Flaps can be a serious challenge there no doubt, largely due to the for es involved.

I grew to love the electric flaps in the 206. In the flare, a few inches off the ground, reach over and hit the switch to “Up”. Beautiful thing, and no need to move your eyes, do it by feel.

On takeoff, I almost always started at 20 then “popped” flaps to launch when on floats, then smoothly retracted them to climb. To my chagrin, I found I could do just as well by simply setting the flaps to 20 and go…..

Again, whatever makes you happy in your plane….

MTV

bush master wrote:This does not reference your post directly, but an experience I had. Years ago I was configured for landing in a 1963 manual flap 172 which at the time I had about 3,000 hrs. in. The runway set on a high hill with substantial drop off on the approach end, the wind was gusting 30 plus, I had 40 degrees of flap which is normal for me. On very short final the sink rate increased to more than full power could handle, I retracted all the flaps instantly or would have impacted the side hill. Manual Flaps saved me. In retrospect I should have known there would have been a strong down wash in that environment.

This entire thread is very interesting. I am intrigued by the above comment because in my experience, immediately dumping flaps causes the plane to sink more, even with full power. Admittedly, I have not done this often based on one or two bad experiences. I suppose I should go up to altitude and play with it. Your experience, bush master, leaves me intrigued as I would not have expected dumping flaps to have helped you in this situation.

As for the flap switch in a 172 which has to be held in position, I found this to be a challenge that I did not need when doing T&Gs as a student. Another 172 that I flew at the time made life much easier because I could just slap the switch up and go back to managing the plane for takeoff.

While I do prefer the manual flaps in my 182, I have not joined the camp of those who pop flaps to get off the water. I found that I tend to screw up the pitch attitude as I reach down for the flap handle. I start with flaps 20 and just leave them there.

Ross

Having flown manual and electric, from a piper to a Pilatus, manual is just better for a small plane / most of the GA fleet, having manual flaps in my 185 landing assured I can almost use it like a collective, same with the takeoff run, plus the simplicity of it all. You can make the electric work, but for small planes where one can actually physically have manual flaps, electric is just inferior.

mtv wrote:

daedaluscan wrote:

mtv wrote:
I much prefer not to reach way down to grab flaps initially. Apparently not ape-like enough…..

MTV

Flame suit on. I installed an EZ flap handle for my wife who could not physically reach the flap handle about five years ago. I love it, the handle is right by the throttle and I don’t have to look for it my hand just falls on it. I rarely put flaps in before I start to roll and just pop them to leave the runway.

I know that there has been much ridicule for them, but I really like it.

Hey, again, if it works for you, it’s your plane. I’ve checked out four women, most of them pretty petite, in Cessna 185s. Flaps can be a serious challenge there no doubt, largely due to the for es involved.

I grew to love the electric flaps in the 206. In the flare, a few inches off the ground, reach over and hit the switch to “Up”. Beautiful thing, and no need to move your eyes, do it by feel.

On takeoff, I almost always started at 20 then “popped” flaps to launch when on floats, then smoothly retracted them to climb. To my chagrin, I found I could do just as well by simply setting the flaps to 20 and go…..

Again, whatever makes you happy in your plane….

MTV

For women and small men I get this, but a normal sized man, I think the handle on my 185 is plenty easy to reach as a 6’ dude, especially with inertia reel belts

Just the speed difference alone between electric and manual is night and day, let alone how you can adjust the rate you deploy or hold off and retract

I have been training my girlfriend for her PPL, and I do agree, a 185 with manual levers at a man’s reach and the forces on them, I never thought twice about it, but for her she has mentioned it, different airframes for different body frames

bush master wrote:
This does not reference your post directly, but an experience I had. Years ago I was configured for landing in a 1963 manual flap 172 which at the time I had about 3,000 hrs. in. The runway set on a high hill with substantial drop off on the approach end, the wind was gusting 30 plus, I had 40 degrees of flap which is normal for me. On very short final the sink rate increased to more than full power could handle, I retracted all the flaps instantly or would have impacted the side hill. Manual Flaps saved me. In retrospect I should have known there would have been a strong down wash in that environment.


This entire thread is very interesting. I am intrigued by the above comment because in my experience, immediately dumping flaps causes the plane to sink more, even with full power. Admittedly, I have not done this often based on one or two bad experiences. I suppose I should go up to altitude and play with it. Your experience, bush master, leaves me intrigued as I would not have expected dumping flaps to have helped you in this situation.

As for the flap switch in a 172 which has to be held in position, I found this to be a challenge that I did not need when doing T&Gs as a student. Another 172 that I flew at the time made life much easier because I could just slap the switch up and go back to managing the plane for takeoff.

While I do prefer the manual flaps in my 182, I have not joined the camp of those who pop flaps to get off the water. I found that I tend to screw up the pitch attitude as I reach down for the flap handle. I start with flaps 20 and just leave them there.

Ross

Instantly dumping the flaps may have not accurately described what I did, but I retracted flaps and added back pressure in one action. This stopped my sink and gave a slight climb. I had a Schweizer 135 sailplane which used flaps instead of spoilers, 80 degrees of flaps and on landing you went from 0 flaps to 80 and less to control glide path. I have done the same in power off spot landing contest in Cessna's and think it is a good practice for engine failures. Must maintain a safe glide speed and increase angle of attack when reducing flaps and decrease when adding flaps.

NineThreeKilo wrote:

mtv wrote:

daedaluscan wrote:

mtv wrote:
I much prefer not to reach way down to grab flaps initially. Apparently not ape-like enough…..

MTV

Flame suit on. I installed an EZ flap handle for my wife who could not physically reach the flap handle about five years ago. I love it, the handle is right by the throttle and I don’t have to look for it my hand just falls on it. I rarely put flaps in before I start to roll and just pop them to leave the runway.

I know that there has been much ridicule for them, but I really like it.

Hey, again, if it works for you, it’s your plane. I’ve checked out four women, most of them pretty petite, in Cessna 185s. Flaps can be a serious challenge there no doubt, largely due to the for es involved.

I grew to love the electric flaps in the 206. In the flare, a few inches off the ground, reach over and hit the switch to “Up”. Beautiful thing, and no need to move your eyes, do it by feel.

On takeoff, I almost always started at 20 then “popped” flaps to launch when on floats, then smoothly retracted them to climb. To my chagrin, I found I could do just as well by simply setting the flaps to 20 and go…..

Again, whatever makes you happy in your plane….

MTV

For women and small men I get this, but a normal sized man, I think the handle on my 185 is plenty easy to reach as a 6’ dude, especially with inertia reel belts

Just the speed difference alone between electric and manual is night and day, let alone how you can adjust the rate you deploy or hold off and retract

I have been training my girlfriend for her PPL, and I do agree, a 185 with manual levers at a man’s reach and the forces on them, I never thought twice about it, but for her she has mentioned it, different airframes for different body frames

Yeah, definitely give her some tools to adapt to those flaps on the 185. Even if she's strong enough to muscle them, most folks do so at higher speed than is really necessary. That's what I've done checking women out in the 185: Get them to slow down more than "necessary" prior to grabbing the lever. It's not just the reach, it's the force required.....slower equals less force.

Frankly, my philosophy is adapt to the plane you're flying. I wouldn't make the change from electric to manual, but I sure might change the switch mechanism. That said, I'm not working airplanes any more, and am trying not to do as many "interesting" things as I used to.

MTV

Thank you for your post. My 172H has the original hold-it-to-fold-it switch. The indicator is a small (2”) gauge located on the panel under the right control yoke….an aggravation in the best of circumstances.

Does anyone have a 337 approval for reverting electric flap system to manual flaps that they would be willing to share? I need something to show local FSDO that this has been done before.

mtv wrote:
For women and small men I get this, but a normal sized man, I think the handle on my 185 is plenty easy to reach as a 6’ dude, especially with inertia reel belts

Just the speed difference alone between electric and manual is night and day, let alone how you can adjust the rate you deploy or hold off and retract

I have been training my girlfriend for her PPL, and I do agree, a 185 with manual levers at a man’s reach and the forces on them, I never thought twice about it, but for her she has mentioned it, different airframes for different body frames

Yeah, definitely give her some tools to adapt to those flaps on the 185. Even if she's strong enough to muscle them, most folks do so at higher speed than is really necessary. That's what I've done checking women out in the 185: Get them to slow down more than "necessary" prior to grabbing the lever. It's not just the reach, it's the force required.....slower equals less force.

Frankly, my philosophy is adapt to the plane you're flying. I wouldn't make the change from electric to manual, but I sure might change the switch mechanism. That said, I'm not working airplanes any more, and am trying not to do as many "interesting" things as I used to.

MTV[/quote]


I agree, she doesn’t fly my 185 too much, and she’s a ways from being solo in it

1000% on the speed before flaps, even outside of the strength, I figure with how draggy the amphib is it’s easy to slow down, slower I drop flaps (and ailerons with my Robertson) the less stress on sheet metal, cables, etc. If ya want the plane to treat you nice, might as well treat her nice too

bush master wrote:bush master wrote:

Instantly dumping the flaps may have not accurately described what I did, but I retracted flaps and added back pressure in one action. This stopped my sink and gave a slight climb.

I'm still surprised this stopped your descent. I guess I'll have to go up to altitude and practice it. Glad it saved you, as that was a bad situation to be in.

Thanks....Ross

pipeliner wrote:

bush master wrote:bush master wrote:

Instantly dumping the flaps may have not accurately described what I did, but I retracted flaps and added back pressure in one action. This stopped my sink and gave a slight climb.

I'm still surprised this stopped your descent. I guess I'll have to go up to altitude and practice it. Glad it saved you, as that was a bad situation to be in.

Thanks....Ross

Just exchanging AOA

Problem is with less lift with less flaps (presuming a good L/D setting) you do drop the stall speed, so exchanging flaps up for pitch up works as long as the pitch up doesn’t exceed the now flaps 0 critical AOA

Now if flaps were in “drag mode” swapping zero flaps for a pitch up might yield a better L/D

ie, final approach flaps tend to be more than go around flaps, dumping flaps from more flaps short final to toga flaps

Ross,

As you know, with flaps you increase the lift to a point but the penalty is drag. A Cessna 150 with 2 people and full flaps can hardly do a go around. You reduce the flaps and reduce the lift and the drag. Go to altitude make climbs using the same airspeed at all the flap settings and see the reduced rate of climb. The 172D owners manual says take off with 10 degrees of flaps will reduce the take off distance and will decreases the climb. My situation involved drag and getting rid of it so the plane would climb better. Most planes have a better rate of climb without flaps. The sight picture in the windshield was moving up which was telling me I was going to hit the sidehill, when I got rid of the flaps the hill immediately moved down and I made the runway. Now did I need to get rid of all the flaps? I don't know. Things happen fast.

I still kick myself that I missed the down wash and could have had an accident. This whole incident was totally on me and I feel lucky I got another chance.