thanks again to all!

i am continually amazed by the combination of the sheer magnitude of experience here, and the helpful spirit everybody has when they share.

much, much appreciation and respect from this rookie.



dave

Somewhat related to this topic is this little video gem that just popped up.

The instructor uses it as a demonstration of the dreaded "engine out turn back" stall/spin/crash, but he initiates it by adding rudder, which I find interesting as I would have expected him to initate it by pulling more G's into an accelerated stall.

Take a watch, or two.

Farmboy wrote:Somewhat related to this topic is this little video gem that just popped up.

The instructor uses it as a demonstration of the dreaded "engine out turn back" stall/spin/crash, but he initiates it by adding rudder, which I find interesting as I would have expected him to initate it by pulling more G's into an accelerated stall.

Take a watch, or two.

That's a good demonstration of what not to do, showing how easy it is to turn a skid into a spin, and how incredibly quickly it happens. Whether it's a turnback after engine failure as he was describing, or simply an attempt to turn onto final without banking too much, it's deadly to make that turn with excess rudder.

If we teach "never bank more than 30 degrees in the pattern", we are almost guaranteeing that at some point, the pilot will be in that situation in which he/she can't line up with the runway with only a 30 degree bank. That gives them 3 choices:
*bank more than 30 degrees in a coordinated turn;
*go around and try it again; or
*keep the bank at 30 degrees but skid the airplane with more rudder.

Unfortunately, that last choice is used too often, especially if the pilot has been programmed to never bank more than 30 degrees in the pattern. A better choice in many situations is simply a somewhat steeper bank, coordinating the turn with appropriate rudder. And of course, going around may be the best option, so that the mistakes that were made the first time can be addressed the next time.

Cary

Well said Cary. Another problem, if we only teach 30 degree bank around the airport, is that we never get to see the need for a lot of rudder in the direction of a steep turn. We do not get to see, after forty five degrees of bank and still going with the nose well down, that the rudder pushes the nose down further. If we don't allow the nose to go down, and use lots of rudder to keep it going down in a steep turn, the wing will quit flying and the nose will go down. We need to get students comfortable with steep turns and how much vertical space is available if we will just use it wisely. The rudder isn't the problem in this video. Not allowing the nose to go down (holding back pressure on the stick) is the problem. We have to get over the fear of being low. We have to get low to land anyway.

I understand that the spin was the result of an uncoordinated stall; in this case a skid. I know this demonstration has been around fifty years. Because I have had so many Commercial Ag students start out using too little rudder, I prefer to emphasize letting the nose go down in the turn. Because I have experienced so many engine failures at very low altitude requiring a very steep turn to make a LZ, I prefer to emphasize letting the nose go down. Because I have made extensive good use of skidding turns in low ground effect and in descending turns to miss things without putting a wing into another thing, I prefer to emphasize letting the nose go down in turns.

Learning aileron and rudder coordination is good. Learning slips and skids, where useful, is good. Letting the nose go down in turns, no learning required, is good. Learning energy management turns is very useful.