I know this is like talking about wheel landings vs 3-points, or downwind turns. Everyone has a pretty strong feeling. Well mine hasn't changed on ADS-B... it sucks.

So why am I talking about this again? Because I just flew down from Alaska to Texas with my GDL39 on the entire way - and I'll share my experience with you.

At the beginning of the trip, from Alaska through part of the Yukon, I had another friend in his 185 along with me. He had ADS-B out so I could see him on Foreflight. Since I don't have ADS-B out he couldn't see where I was.

Now normally when I fly with friends we use this thing call "visual separation" (a strange concept these days I know) and radio communications along with showing wing when we loose sight of each other. But we were in some very low ceiling and vis and I'll admit it was quicker and easier to glance at Foreflight and know where he was.

Speaking of weather, flying anywhere, but especially in the north, knowing what's happening with the weather is critically important. And here ADS-B is useless (at least tower based ADS-B). I got no weather displays until I got into Texas. And Foreflight doesn't allow you to select your weather source (Garmin Pilot does) so if you are using ADS-B in with Foreflight unless there are ADS-B towers in the vicinity you won't have any weather info.

How about traffic on this trip. Well my 185 currently doesn't have ADS-B out so I have to rely on either towers or other aircraft that are out equipped (of which of course there are plenty). Other than my friend in Alaska and the Yukon, I didn't see any traffic displayed until Texas. And then they were everywhere, like no-see-ums- except I was seeing them (on the screen anyway).

My destination was Lockhart and as I got into the greater Austin area there were planes all over the display going every which way and at all kinds of altitudes. And I had Foreflight set to not show distant traffic (I turned that on once just to see and holy cow it was like looking at a Find Waldo picture).

As I got within 20 miles of Lockhart I started letting down from 3,500 feet. And then there he (or she) was. The little ADS-B triangle aimed right at me and descending. I thought it might be going to Lockhart as well. It was a little faster than me so was gaining ground. So I descended further and it continued on an intercept course also descending. Meanwhile I had a 172 crossing in front of me a few miles ahead and a little higher that I was gaining on- so I felt I had to keep my eye on that target as well. Plus all the others around me at all the other airports that may or may not turn toward me.

By now my attention was focused nearly entirely on my iPad at this bogey coming in quickly from behind and descending on me (which sucks because I'm no longer looking out the window where the real danger is). I continue to descend to an altitude I doubt he'll descend to keeping about 500' between us (according to ADS-B) as his triangle is now right on top of mine. I figured out he was actually landing at San Marcos, a Class D airport not too far from Lockhart so it wasn't long and I was out from under him.

Had he seen me? I have no idea. Would we have collided had I not descended? Probably not. The traffic alert of Foreflight never triggered, and those triangles have to be big enough to see on the screen so they represent a lot of airspace, and how many mid-airs occur every year- not very many. What really sucked was how much time I spent staring at the screen. I didn't like that at all. Plus there was a bit of stress through that entire ordeal which I didn't like either.

But I have decided that because I'll start flying the 185 to the Florida Keys every winter and with the density of controlled airspace I'd have to navigate around to avoid having ADS-B, that I am going to outfit the 185 with ADS-B out. That will happen while the plane is in Texas this winter.

But I will have nothing to do with ADS-B in. In my opinion, at least for me, it's a really really bad idea. So I won't be looking for your target (or any target) on my screen. Instead my eyes will be looking out the window as they always have.

Already have the MaxPulse for the Landing/Taxi light which is always on. But I'm also adding strobes all around the 185 for those coming up my six. She is getting wing strobes, a tail strobe/ADS-B out, and a rotating beacon strobe. this should keep folks off my six where I can't see them.

Thanks for letting me rant.

Phil,

I agree with you. It takes a LOT of discipline to keep looking outside when you have traffic displays in the cockpit. We had multifunction displays with traffic in the school planes, and it was tough to avoid getting fixated on that screen when there were a lot of airplanes around.

I installed ADS-B Out, but so far at least, I have no intent to install ADS-B In.

Florida Keys, eh? Bonefish?

MTV

I agree with you. It takes a LOT of discipline to keep looking outside when you have traffic displays in the cockpit.

My thoughts as well.

A

mtv wrote:Phil,

I agree with you. It takes a LOT of discipline to keep looking outside when you have traffic displays in the cockpit. We had multifunction displays with traffic in the school planes, and it was tough to avoid getting fixated on that screen when there were a lot of airplanes around.

I installed ADS-B Out, but so far at least, I have no intent to install ADS-B In.

Florida Keys, eh? Bonefish?

MTV

I just ordered the tailBeacon today for ADS-B out and a Garmin GDL 50 for in. I am a Garmin Pilot user.

I agree with everything said here. For me the real time WX capabilities have value when flying in the bush, and it provides SA when I pop into Lake Hood. How much I actually use it remains to be seen.

What? Another mandate that failed to replace old tech as promised (primary radar), costs owners a half trillion dollars to implement, with zero security, with inferior features to anything else available on the open market for a tiny fraction of the cost, and with no discernible impact on flight safety for bug smashers?

Yeah, that's about par.

People love to point out how many collisions they avoid with it, as if they and everyone else should have littered the ground by now with mid air crashes for lack of the feature on their screen.

People already come unglued at the idea of NORDO traffic at a non tower airfield.

I can't wait until after 2020 when the outrage begins about the hoodlums who haven't drank the Kool aid because they operate outside any mode C veil. Which is most of the country by the way.

"WTF?!? That guy didn't show up on my tablet!"

There are less GA planes in the air than 22 years ago when I learned to fly. Clean windows, eyes outside.

I have had two instances now where ADS-B has proved its worth. Both times it was aircraft on a collision course that were not using their radios and basically following my movements to avoid them. I understand the system lacks many things for many people, but I am grateful for it.

Change is scary...

Another tool in the tool box is useless or even dangerous if we aren't careful how we apply that tool. Use it when it helps, keep it in your back pocket when it's a hindrance. Seems pretty easy to manage to me.

I agree with the importance of keeping my eyes outside and not focusing solely on the traffic on my Ipad. I do however think the ADSB-I information is useful and I would rather have it than be without it. I live in a congested area and it has been useful not only for avoiding traffic but also knowing exactly where to look. There are also blind spots for high/low wing aircraft and the ADS-B info is just one more set of eyes for me. I found this study below interesting. The study shows enhanced safety with ADS-B I information but more likely due to weather and CFIT than collision avoidance. The number of midair collisions is small relative to other accidents so it is hard to know if ADS-B I information truly leads to a reduction in mid air collisions. The data will also be affected by the reduced number of airplanes that are flying today and in the future. Like any other instrument data that I have available in the airplane - it is useful but I shouldn't be fixated on it either.

https://download.aopa.org/advocacy/2019 ... 019_V2.pdf

Instead of showing EVERY aircraft in a 5 mile radius, why not just show the one I WILL collide with in the next 200 seconds?
Not the ones that I'll come 100 yards from but actual mid air collision avoidance ala FLARM. Gliders figured this out years ago.
While turning base to final, I really dont care that someone is 1/2 mile away on the down wind. He's no factor.

As everyone has already stated, the rest is just a distraction and distractions contribute to accidents more often than see and avoid failures.

No surprise probably, but I will be (legally) non-compliant, as I am perfectly happy staying the hell out of mode C airspace, and will continue to look out the windshield for other aircraft. What scares me is knowing many other pilots will have their heads down looking at a screen, ANOTHER screen. I hate to say it, but it's another reason to fly low. And to simply stay away from large population centers.

Bagarre wrote:Instead of showing EVERY aircraft in a 5 mile radius, why not just show the one I WILL collide with in the next 200 seconds?
Not the ones that I'll come 100 yards from but actual mid air collision avoidance ala FLARM. Gliders figured this out years ago.
While turning base to final, I really dont care that someone is 1/2 mile away on the down wind. He's no factor.

As everyone has already stated, the rest is just a distraction and distractions contribute to accidents more often than see and avoid failures.

That has nothing to do with ADS-B... its the function of the software that is showing what its getting from ADS-B. Maybe someday - foreflight or someone will built this feature in, a check box called "Aircraft that will kill me" and only those are shown or give audible alerts - but in fairness - this is not a failure in ADS-B.

Dog is my Copilot wrote:I agree with the importance of keeping my eyes outside and not focusing solely on the traffic on my Ipad. I do however think the ADSB-I information is useful and I would rather have it than be without it. I live in a congested area and it has been useful not only for avoiding traffic but also knowing exactly where to look. There are also blind spots for high/low wing aircraft and the ADS-B info is just one more set of eyes for me. I found this study below interesting. The study shows enhanced safety with ADS-B I information but more likely due to weather and CFIT than collision avoidance. The number of midair collisions is small relative to other accidents so it is hard to know if ADS-B I information truly leads to a reduction in mid air collisions. The data will also be affected by the reduced number of airplanes that are flying today and in the future. Like any other instrument data that I have available in the airplane - it is useful but I shouldn't be fixated on it either.

https://download.aopa.org/advocacy/2019 ... 019_V2.pdf

^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^^

I think it's safe to say that ADSB wasn't mandated for our utility.


However....I have avoided at least one Near Collision (I was IMC, in a Baron, and a "bootleg IFR" plane was on a collision course. I turned, based on the ADSB target.

In a few minutes the guy came on, confessed he was "accidentally IFR" (grrr), and not instrument rated, and could the controller help him.


Would we have hit? Dunno. (It's hard enough to teach "join up in formation" when you can *see* the other guy, and you *want* to get near him).


Was it enough to get my pulse rate up?

Yep.


So, if we're gonna have to do this, at least take advantage of it. (living under the shelf of a Bravo airspace, it's sometimes helpful).

corefile wrote:

Bagarre wrote:Instead of showing EVERY aircraft in a 5 mile radius, why not just show the one I WILL collide with in the next 200 seconds?
Not the ones that I'll come 100 yards from but actual mid air collision avoidance ala FLARM. Gliders figured this out years ago.
While turning base to final, I really dont care that someone is 1/2 mile away on the down wind. He's no factor.

As everyone has already stated, the rest is just a distraction and distractions contribute to accidents more often than see and avoid failures.

That has nothing to do with ADS-B... its the function of the software that is showing what its getting from ADS-B. Maybe someday - foreflight or someone will built this feature in, a check box called "Aircraft that will kill me" and only those are shown or give audible alerts - but in fairness - this is not a failure in ADS-B.

Most all of the comments on this thread are speaking to ADSB being an unnecessary distraction in the cockpit so, it does have to do with it.

I equipped for ADS-B out with a mode S transponder with extended squitter. I get ADS-B traffic and radar traffic through the mode S TCAS receiver. I'm a fan of the capability and it helps me where most of my flying takes place. I'm right on the edge of the 30 mile veil around the Seattle Class B. It's busy airspace. I fly through that veil to get almost everywhere I want to go. A quick glance at my tablet and I know where to look outside for traffic. Without that hint, I'd miss most of what's coming at me. I've also flown across the country and the ADSB weather gave me useful strategic guidance on needed route changes in real time. I've gotten more out of ADS-B than from most FAA initiatives. I see daily benefits and that's rare from any federal program. I guess it all depends on where most of your flying takes place. My trips off the grid don't benefit from the equipment, but that's less than 5% of my airtime.

As a new pilot I really like it. Could be because I’m flying in some very crowded airspace but a great example is going from Gillespie to French Valley on the weekend. Lots of guys coming through the Valley south of Temecula. Some may be on the common traffic freq and some are going Flight Following . Flying a high wing I can’t see those above that are descending on top of me. It adds to my situational awareness .

G44 wrote:

Dog is my Copilot wrote:I agree with the importance of keeping my eyes outside and not focusing solely on the traffic on my Ipad. I do however think the ADSB-I information is useful and I would rather have it than be without it. I live in a congested area and it has been useful not only for avoiding traffic but also knowing exactly where to look. There are also blind spots for high/low wing aircraft and the ADS-B info is just one more set of eyes for me. I found this study below interesting. The study shows enhanced safety with ADS-B I information but more likely due to weather and CFIT than collision avoidance. The number of midair collisions is small relative to other accidents so it is hard to know if ADS-B I information truly leads to a reduction in mid air collisions. The data will also be affected by the reduced number of airplanes that are flying today and in the future. Like any other instrument data that I have available in the airplane - it is useful but I shouldn't be fixated on it either.

https://download.aopa.org/advocacy/2019 ... 019_V2.pdf

^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^^

X3

-0-

I recently retrieved a guy from positioning his airplane
at another airport for ASDS-B out installation.
He recently got an ADS-B In gizmo,
and brought it with him along with his tablet.
A good part of the trip back was comments "there's traffic over there" (I look and look),
and "there's traffic over here" (I look and look)--
most of which alerts were followed by "he's 3 miles away, 1200' higher, and going the other way".
If that's ADS-B in, I don't want any part of it.
Very distracting, & I wasn't even the one scanning the tablet screen.
I'll just stick with looking out the windows, thank you.
I'm installing ADS-B out in a week or two, but have zero plans to get ADS-B in.
Probably wouldn't even get out, except that being near the SEA mode C veil makes it a practical necessity,