mtv wrote:
We can all take a clue from military aviators. Robin Olds was quoted as saying "All I ever want to hear from that kid on my wing is.... "Two" meaning I acknowledge and will comply, "Bingo" meaning he's out of fuel, and "Lead's on fire". NOTHING else.

MTV

Damn it! My CP told me it was:
Nice Landing!
I've got this round!
or
I'll take the fat one..

123.45 reaches farther than just Atlantic and polar crossing. It is pretty much a trans-oceanic common freq. We monitor it anytime we are out of VHF range over the pacific, south china and Indian oceans. Really anywhere there is no VHF coverage. United pilots love to get all chatty Kathy during long pacific crossings. The frequency blows up when San Francisco radio forgets to switch aircraft to the new primary frequency.

My experience with events like EZflap is talking about is that somebody with the event gets an assigned frequency that comes with the waver if there is one. I called a fair number of airshows and the FAA observer would tell me at some point prior to my pilot briefing what frequency we could use. It was usually just a 121 something that had no normal competition close by. Crew to performer was normally assigned as well. So I monitored the airport's CTAF, the show frequency and any military involved on some 400mhz frequency or another. Those guys didn't have call signs. They went by names such as "Bubbles", "Moondoggie" "Potato Flake" etc. It's too bad we can't do that actually. EZflap this is Emery Board how copy?

We always had someone bust the airspace during a show due to not reading the notams. As I read the foregoing though, the only freq we have here on the mainland is 122.750 and that 122.775 might be allowable? Is that the gist? I must say that I've heard lots of folks using 123.45 here on the mainland for many years. I wonder just how much they interfere with over polar flights from Nevada? No really!

EB

Emory Bored wrote:
Those guys didn't have call signs. They went by names such as "Bubbles", "Moondoggie" "Potato Flake" etc. It's too bad we can't do that actually. EZflap this is Emery Board how copy?

The pilots in soaring competitions use "contest numbers", which originally were a combination of two numbers or letters or both (later three). 30 years ago (OMFG) mine was VB, other contest guys I flew with were 66, MS, R1, 3V, LB, and so on. Although we were supposed to use the aviation phonetic alphabet ("Romeo One", "Five Zulu" etc.), being the egomaniacal wacky racers that we were, we came up with handles and nicknames. MG was known far and wide as "Mighty Gorilla", "JP" who was a test pilot instructor at KEDW went by "Jet Pilot" and so on.

When I got back in to powered aircraft, at non-tower airports back in the "Unicom" days, people would identify themselves the same way as they would with a tower... "This is Cessna 7206A", etc. But in the past few years, I've seen a trend at some non-towered airports (notably Santa Paula here in SoCal) that makes a lot of sense to me. The other guy in the pattern doesn't give a damn what your N number is. They want to be able to identify you by what they see. So "White and blue Cessna, downwind abeam at 800 feet" is a lot more useful information for the guy listening than an N number or even model number.

This may be relevant to back country airstrips for two reasons. First, it gives other pilots an idea of what color and general type airplane they are looking for. Second, it can save a second or two worth of talking, which can make it easier for another person to find an open break to transmit. "November Three Seven Three Niner Foxtrot" should take less time than "Yellow Super Cub".

As someone has already pointed out, see and avoid must be the first line of defense no matter what else you do, but I also must agree with another post that anything that can add another level of safety to that is fine with me so long as it is reasonable cost.

A guy at a BBQ today told me he just bought a little e-gadget that gives him ADS-B and traffic and a usable electronic attitude indicator and nationwide weather on his iPad, inflight, and in real-time. That kind of stuff scares the crap out of me, but if I had the brain power and mind-set to learn these new languages and gadgets I'd sure give it a try. An airplane's wing has to be somewhere, and there will always be someplace that the wing blocks your vision, where see and avoid will be difficult.

So I vote for a radio procedure to augment see and avoid.

EZFlap wrote:.... But in the past few years, I've seen a trend at some non-towered airports (notably Santa Paula here in SoCal) that makes a lot of sense to me. The other guy in the pattern doesn't give a damn what your N number is. They want to be able to identify you by what they see. So "White and blue Cessna, downwind abeam at 800 feet" is a lot more useful information for the guy listening than an N number or even model number. This may be relevant to back country airstrips for two reasons. First, it gives other pilots an idea of what color and general type airplane they are looking for. Second, it can save a second or two worth of talking, which can make it easier for another person to find an open break to transmit. "November Three Seven Three Niner Foxtrot" should take less time than "Yellow Super Cub". ....

I started doing this years ago- one because it quicker and more useful, and two so some asshole doesn't use my tailnumber for some nefarious purpose (like ratting me out to someone for some imagined wrong). Believe it or not, I have been chewed out on the radio for doing this. I told the complaining party that if he was close enough to read my tailnumber, he was TOO DAMN CLOSE and didn't need me to read it to him anyway. I'd much rather hear "red and white Cessna" when I'm in a busy pattern behind one, than cessna 123 or worse yet november 123 which doesn't narrow things down much.

hotrod150 wrote:

EZFlap wrote:.... But in the past few years, I've seen a trend at some non-towered airports (notably Santa Paula here in SoCal) that makes a lot of sense to me. The other guy in the pattern doesn't give a damn what your N number is. They want to be able to identify you by what they see. So "White and blue Cessna, downwind abeam at 800 feet" is a lot more useful information for the guy listening than an N number or even model number. This may be relevant to back country airstrips for two reasons. First, it gives other pilots an idea of what color and general type airplane they are looking for. Second, it can save a second or two worth of talking, which can make it easier for another person to find an open break to transmit. "November Three Seven Three Niner Foxtrot" should take less time than "Yellow Super Cub". ....

I started doing this years ago- one because it quicker and more useful, and two so some asshole doesn't use my tailnumber for some nefarious purpose (like ratting me out to someone for some imagined wrong). Believe it or not, I have been chewed out on the radio for doing this. I told the complaining party that if he was close enough to read my tailnumber, he was TOO DAMN CLOSE and didn't need me to read it to him anyway. I'd much rather hear "red and white Cessna" when I'm in a busy pattern behind one, than cessna 123 or worse yet november 123 which doesn't narrow things down much.

Excellent.

Question.... Is there an FCC requirement to use the N number as your call sign?

Gump

As I get older my internal hard drive has less room and my CPU gets slower. There is no way I can remember N numbers called out in the pattern. But words like Skywagon, Piper, Citation, Mooney, Yellow RV, those I can remember.

For me it's just Skywagon or Stearman. Appended with the N number when I go into controlled airspace (almost never thank goodness).

I remember flying into San Marcos and calling "Skywagon 185DB" and the controller calling me "Skylane 185DB". That continued for our entire conversation. Probably never heard of a Skywagon before. Made me smile anyway.

GumpAir wrote:Question.... Is there an FCC requirement to use the N number as your call sign?

Gump

No.

We use 122.675 as air to air in our area without any problems stepping on anyone.

Thoughts on call signs: When entering an uncontrolled airport pattern, I use my full N-number on the first call, then abbreviate to "Yellow Kitfox" from then on. Really, if you think about it, can the other planes in the pattern see your n-number or can they see the color and type of plane easier??

At busy locations I like using aircraft type and color. It really helps identifying who's who, makes it easy to identify each other and know the performance of the traffic.

In fact while coming to JC, landing at Hailey (class D) for fuel I was cleared for a 2 mile straight in final by the tower, then heard a Lear Jet call from 40 miles. Knowing the Lear could easily overtake my Kitfox I called the tower and said something like, "Hailey tower, do you want the Kitfox to land long and get off the active for the Lear?" The tower responded with "Kitfox you're cleared for a long landing, thanks".

Later coming from McCall to JC I heard, "Kitfox this is a red and while Pacer on your 4:00 low. I'm going to pass you." I looked, found him as he passed below me I replyed, "Red and white Pacer I've got you. I'll follow you into JC". We both knew who was who, cleared each other and knew intentions. It works.

my call sign is painful to say - half the time the towers and app/dep can't get it right -

"yellow cub" sounds so much mo bettah

soyAnarchisto wrote:my call sign is painful to say - half the time the towers and app/dep can't get it right -

"yellow cub" sounds so much mo bettah

My old plane was N77227...rolled off the tongue pretty quickly, and it was funny how many controllers stumbled through the reply. "Ah roger seven two...two....seven seven enter left base for..."

I've heard many people identifying themselves by color and type and to me it makes perfect sense. Since I got the super cub I just say "supercub two six Charlie", there's not many supercubs around here to nessecitate a color too, I just say it this way to avoid accidentally replying "white supercub" when in a towered environment.

Back to Air to air freq..has anybody mentioned 127.47?? I've used this before, they called it "Jumbo", as in 747 jumbo jet

There's a simple cheap solution if you want to do this on regular basis. Buy a pair of medium quality FRS radios Ones, like the medium to high end Motorola's, have a VOX function. Then Wire up a connector to go to one of your Aux jacks on your audio system. The GRMS versions of these radios can transmit about 50 miles in the air. They also have the ability to be encrypted, along with a whole bunch of other functions. For 100 bucks you got a lot of capability Besides, you and whomever you're talking to are the only two in the conversation not everybody for 100 miles around.

GumpAir wrote:Question.... Is there an FCC requirement to use the N number as your call sign?

Gump

If my memory serves, the answer is yes and no. Yes when you are contacting ground or a tower for the first time, then you can abbreviate it to the last couple of characters from then on unless ordered otherwise. As of late, the tower at my home 'drome will demand you call back with your full N number if you don't do it on the first call, probably some ass-covering lawyer or TSA deal.

As far as air to air between pilots, this has nothing to do with ATC involvement, so I would bet that there is no requirement. And it would be un-enforceable anyway.

Besides, airliners go by their flight numbers (TWA 800, etc) instead of N numbers I believe, the police rotors go by call sign ( "Police 4"), and the TV news rotors go by local TV station numbers ("TV 4") so there is definitely a precedent for call signs being OK. I believe the military also uses their call signs even when using civilian airspace and working with civilian ATC.

I was flying with Rob, Brian, and Joey one day and we were talking on 123.45. Mostly position reports. Then we got yelled at by some airline pilot over the Pacific that we were congesting a vital frequency. He said his piece and we just kept usung the frequency. The consensus was he coild come over and make us stop if he really didn't like it. That band was totally silent when we or he were not talking.

We would have stopped if he had asked nice.

svanarts wrote:That band was totally silent when we or he were not talking.

Silent from your location, maybe not from his?

GumpAir wrote:Question.... Is there an FCC requirement to use the N number as your call sign?

Gump

Good question. You'd think on a dedicated VHF band, and the fact that we used to have to carry a radio operator's license, the answer would be yes. Where the FCC and the FAA cross regulatory jurisdiction, I do not know.

Zzz wrote:

GumpAir wrote:Question.... Is there an FCC requirement to use the N number as your call sign?

Gump

Good question. You'd think on a dedicated VHF band, and the fact that we used to have to carry a radio operator's license, the answer would be yes. Where the FCC and the FAA cross regulatory jurisdiction, I do not know.

Some info here:
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publicat ... s0403.html

I once heard a pilot calling for departure at airventure as "tower, this is sean, going to the practice area". Who knows if that was legal or if some people can just get away with anything they want.

We use to use radio station licenses on marine VHF and AIR, the FCC call sign was mandatory. Not anymore with lack of radio permit license on aircraft. The license to broadcast and the laws governing transmission of AIR frequencies are different that's let's say DOT, FAA, ATC PROCEDURES! Those laws are FCC regulations (the US FCC laws are extremely flexible and deregulated).

The requirement of using an N number on AIR BAND by the "FCC" is not required. I.e. a handheld.

Long ago every radio was required to have a station license (tax) and a call sign. No more tax, oops I mean fee.