I have a 53 180 that is fitted with the Javelin 18 gal baggage tank. I don't use the tank much, but I am not sure I am ready to give it up given the small bladders on these early models.

I'd really like to dump my bench rear seat, and those of you who know me usually see me with my 2 kids. I really need back seating (at least 1 seat). My question for the group is, have you seen or are you aware of, a 180 with this setup (folding seats and baggage tank)? The Javelin baggage tank extends about 4" forward past the rear bulkhead that the Atlee Dodge rails hook to, but it appears that there may be enough clearance on the sides and bottom if I pull then reinstall the tank. Before I go to dropping $2,500 on seats I want to know that they will fit. Steve at FA Dodge wasn't sure, he said they had a circumstance with a 172 where the seats didn't fit with a baggage tank, but he thought the 180 might be a bit different. He mentioned they had approximately 3,000 Installations out there, so surely someone has run across this before.

Barring that, anyone got a single or set of Cessna jump seats they want to part with?

Thanks,
Flynengr

Flyengr:

Couldn't Atlee send you a paper pattern for the installation that would allow you to test it out in advance. It has been a while since I installed mine, but as I recall there is a pattern that comes with the kit??

I have 4 kids and loved the Atlee Dodge stowable seats. The seats work good with kids and it is sure handy to be able to fold them up and stow them against the fuselage.

I would also question keeping the extra gas. I have a 59 with stock tanks (which is 65 gallons, but only about 60 gallons usable). I think you have 60 gallon tanks, but I'm not sure what the usable is. With 60 usable, I have a solid 5 hrs with 30 minutes reserve. Don't know about you, but after 4 hrs in my bird, my butt and bladder are usually telling me it is time to land. That gives me 540 nm and 1.5hr reserve. That has always been more than enough for me?? Maybe you have a stronger backside than mine.

I think you will like the seats. I have sure enjoyed mine.

Good Luck!! Larry

FWIW (and forgive the thread drift), although I haven't figured out how to make my bladder handle longer flights, I decided after an annual trek to OSH one year that I'd had enough of getting home and barely being able to walk well enough to put the airplane in the hangar. So I bit the bullet and sent my pilot seat to Oregon Aero for them to modify it. Wow! Now after a full day of flying, like 8 hours in the air, I can still motate. Sure, I'm tired, just because it's been a whole day. But the stiff problems are almost eliminated. The only downside is that in cold weather the first few minutes are like sitting on a brick, until the foam warms up. It was definitely worth the expense.

Cary

I just bought the FA jumps and am getting ready to install them. As the airplane is apart now, I can do any measurements you want. Give me a ring and we can talk.

Ill PM my #

Greg-

The extra gas is nice for BC trips...mine holds nearly 80 gals, and I use it a lot when I'm hopping between strips for a week to avoid making a gas run. Other than that, I never would need more than 60 gals.

If anyone wants a comfy upgrade to their Cessna seats, I've sat on a seat where a guy took a $20 memory foam pad and trimmed it to stuff under the existing seat upholstery. Folks also like to just sew them up as a pad that sits on top of the seat or under a seat cover.

I sat in a fold up seat and they are not really something a lot of adults would want to deal with for a few hours at a time, FWIW. They are also pricey (nonetheless, he is saying he has sold $7.5M of them).

That's why I made some quick seat releases from 7075 Al and some other parts that allow the bench seat to be removed or installed in a few minutes for my 182, and it avoids the thread wear you get from repeated installs of the seat hardware into the airframe. I have also removed one of the bench seat backs to allow more baggage room with three persons, but getting it all back together seemed more time consuming than it's worth.

Those collapsible fuel bladders seem pretty popular. Could they fit your needs for the few times you are looking for the extra range?

Scott, here's my 2 cents... You can get rid of the aux tank since you rarely use it and sell it to make some extra cash to help pay for the seats. At the same time you will be gaining cargo area and useful load. If you find yourself missing the extra fuel you can get 2 or 3 gas bags from AKBW and haul some extra gas with you when you need it. I realize you will have to land to refuel from the bags but its just an option. I have 2 of the bags and they hold a little over 5 gallons each... that gives me about an extra hour and a half of flying. They are great for when you're out in the backcountry and want a little extra fuel for flying around, it gives you more time before you need to make a fuel run. And when the bags are empty they are completely flat and take up virtually no room in the plane.

robw56 wrote:Scott, here's my 2 cents... You can get rid of the aux tank since you rarely use it and sell it to make some extra cash to help pay for the seats. At the same time you will be gaining cargo area and useful load. If you find yourself missing the extra fuel you can get 2 or 3 gas bags from AKBW and haul some extra gas with you when you need it. I realize you will have to land to refuel from the bags but its just an option. I have 2 of the bags and they hold a little over 5 gallons each... that gives me about an extra hour and a half of flying. They are great for when you're out in the backcountry and want a little extra fuel for flying around, it gives you more time before you need to make a fuel run. And when the bags are empty they are completely flat and take up virtually no room in the plane.

This makes the most sense ^^. Remove the permanent installation so that you have the potential to be as light as possible when you want to be.

I have this set up in my 170, but I have never used the tank. It sits in the rafters of my cabin. I have set the tank in a few years ago and checked everything out but never hooked it up and really don't remember much of what I though about it. Next trip up north to the cabin I will bring it home and set it up and get some pics.
Greg

Thanks guys for all of the input. 99 percent of the time the Javelin tank is not very useful to me. When full, the baggage compartment area is supposed to be empty. For camping trips it isn't much help because that area is packed to the gills with gear, especially with the bench seat. Some of that issue may be alleviated if the heavy stuff can sit in the 4th seat hole.

That said, when Brett the previous owner and I flew it out from Houston to Northern CA in one long day I believe it saved us one fuel stop. I am not fond of planning for less than an hour's worth of fuel remaining, and when trying to cover some ground I plan 12 gph. That gives me about 3.5 hrs without the baggage tank. Sometime in the forseeable future I'd like to hit Alaska and Oshkosh, and for those trips I will probably send the kids commercial and the extra in flight fuel would be nice to have. The empty baggage tank right now isn't too big of an obstacle as it just raises the floor about 6".

I am also not really keen on having to patch the fuselage skin where the cap and filler come through. The last couple pieces that were painted om the plane didn't match up really well when the Imron paint code was used. Fortunately they are on top of the wing and don't catch your attention the way a fuselage patch would.

For these reasons and the fact that it won't cost me anything but a slight weight penalty to keep it, I am leaning towards not getting rid of it.

I found some drawings on Atlee's website and Steve provided a couple important dimensions. I also plan to take Greg up on his offer for any other measurements I might need to make a final determination.

Thanks again for all of the input. I was hoping to find a "can't be done" or "absolutely - Check out the pics of my 180 with both the tank and Atlee seats", but hopefully once I get through this process I can report back on what I find.

Flynengr

Here is another option that might have different dimensions to fit with your tank.
I've had good luck with them in my plane.

http://lakevueaeronautics.com/id2.html

Thanks Terry. I tried them first before going to Atlee Dodge. They said I had to have complete access to the bulkhead. They also didn't have any engineering drawings they would share to figure it out.

Flynengr

If you need measurements let me know. It would be interesting to see a picture of your tank.
Good luck.

Another approach: Remove theJavalin tank, sell it,and install a set of Flint wing tip tanks.

More $$$, but would solve both issues. If you even THINK you're going to AK, more gas is a good thing.

MTV

Well, pulled stuff apart today and the Atlee seats aren't gonna happen with the baggage tank. Only have 1/4" to 5/16" clear and it is a cushion material to separate the tank from the bulkhead. Looking at the paint scheme the filler port actually is almost completely in the white stripe which will be easier to match. Guess I need to do some thinking on whether the tank stays or goes. Maybe I will take a closer look at how the Cessna jump seats mount before I kiss the tank goodbye. Anyone know what the tanks and all the accessories (pump, switch, gauge, filler neck, cap) go for on the used market?

Thanks,
Flynengr

pulled stuff apart today and the Atlee seats aren't gonna happen with the baggage tank

Just wondering is it rubbing on the rails on the floor or the rails the seat mounts to on the side? I know when I set my tank in and was checking stuff out it fit ok and all I had to do was re-plumb it and secure it. No fit issues that I can remember but that was a couple years ago I was messing with it. I do know the previous owner had made some very light plywood to set the tank on because of the seat rails on the floor. Also a piece of plywood to sit on top of the tank when it was installed.
I would have to agree with MTV and I would sell it all for flint wing tip tanks. 3 hours and a few minutes of gas up here is not enough.
Greg

Ill be glad to take that Javalin aux tank off your hands! Had one in the 170 I used to own really helped with fueling options, time/distance $ per gallon and such. Sure could use it in the 180, The one I had said it was 18 gallon I could never get more than 15 in it and I had it bone dry once after resealing the gasket on top.

roamak wrote:

pulled stuff apart today and the Atlee seats aren't gonna happen with the baggage tank

Just wondering is it rubbing on the rails on the floor or the rails the seat mounts to on the side? I know when I set my tank in and was checking stuff out it fit ok and all I had to do was re-plumb it and secure it. No fit issues that I can remember but that was a couple years ago I was messing with it. I do know the previous owner had made some very light plywood to set the tank on because of the seat rails on the floor. Also a piece of plywood to sit on top of the tank when it was installed.
I would have to agree with MTV and I would sell it all for flint wing tip tanks. 3 hours and a few minutes of gas up here is not enough.
Greg

Greg:

You may be on to something I didn't think through very carefully today. The side rails have the interference. There are bracket holddowns from the bulkhead on either side that hold the plywood top down, and that sandwiches the tank between the plywood top, the floor, an angle stop bracket on the front and the rear bulkhead. The sides of the tank taper to match the bulkhead flange. If the tank was an inch higher, it might just clear on the sides. The bottom as it sits looks like the rails will fit underneath but the side rails are where it is too tight. The angle stop brackets would likely need to get taller, and the holddown brackets possibly shortened, but it might just work.

I'll plan to study it a little more, and run it past my IA to see if he will sign off on blocking the tank up an inch or so. Thanks for the idea.

Russ, I will keep ya in mind. I'm hoping to install one of those thirsty Pponks too, sure would be nice to keep the tank to be able to feed it.

Flynengr

One other thought....calculate a "real world" weight and balance with someone in that back seat AND full fuel. You may think you'll never go there, but......

I've only flown one airplane with one of these tanks, and I never liked having that much weight that far aft.

Just something to consider.

MTV

Wasn't there here a collapsable sling seat for Cessna's here that was rather unobtrusive to anything in the back area?

Thanks for the bump macktruckfarm. The problem with the sling seat is it also takes up the entire width. I can have the bench in and out in just a few minutes.....

Doing something about the rear seat is still on my wish list. However, after the laggard performance my 82" prop gave me in Idaho/MT this summer and again for the High Sierra Fly In, A longer or better prop up front has moved to the top of the Christmas list this year...